Interesting M29-10 barrel problem.

[trapper189]

SRDesign, have you heard from Smith & Wesson yet?

The UPS Next Day air label arrived Saturday. I sent my 29-10 home to MA yesterday, so hopefully I get some good news in the next couple of days. I also took delivery of a M29 Bounty Hunter on Saturday that has the opposite problem: a little too much material was removed in the grooves which I'm guessing won't affect accuracy much. On the good side, the Bounty Hunter's lock up is as tight as it gets.

I'm surprised there haven't been more reports about this rifling defect. Hopefully the lack of other cases means S&W QC is working and we just had few slip by on some QC person's bad Monday.

Trapp

 

[MidnightCookieMonster]

S&W QC is non-existant..I wish we were talking about some brief quality slip here.... but this was obviously a 'commercial decision' by S&W to cut manufacturing costs and they are now playing a cold war with their customers by insisting these barrels are within spec.... I suspect that this defect will be predominant in the special issues that dont have enough volume to justify proper rifling tooling (as I see more complaints from the Lew Horton purchasers)...
Any good news?

 

[cold rain]

Same problem with my Lew Horton 3 inch model 29. S&W sent me a UPS return label and I sent it in 2/15. They got it on 2/18 and I heard from them today.

I talked to Joe Mancue (not sure how he spells his last name) and he told me that this is not a problem but the way the barrels are now manufactured due to the nature of the ECR rifling process. I said I wasn't happy with it and he told me that it's normal; it’s a "new style of rifling". He switched me to the supervisor, Kate, whose voice mail reported that “I’m not at my desk at the moment”.

I really like this revolver despite the lock but for what the thing costs…

Maybe I just don't get the "new style of rifling" thing because I’m from the old school were there were no bumps in the rifling.

What do you folks think, is this a "new style of rifling" or a manufacturing defect?

 

[buckeyeshooter]

I have a low number 3" 29 nickel Lew Horton. I'm traveling and do not have access to the gun until I get home, will check mine. I can say that I have 600 rounds or more through the gun and have been happy with the accuracy. It shoots 4.5 inches or less at 25 meters for 50 round box if I concentrate and do my part with handloads. Not target loads but something about 1000fps with a lead 240.
Have you men shot the gun enough to see how it groups?

 

[trapper189]

If they received cold rain's on the 18th and called him on the 26th and they received mine on the 19th, I should be getting a call today!

The CS rep I spoke too when I first called said there shouldn't be anything in the grooves as high as the adjacent lands, which is the case with the 3" Bounty Hunter I picked up. A little extra material was removed in the grooves. On my nickel 6 1/2" they left material in three out of five grooves and the one I managed to photograph isn't the worst one. I didn't shoot it or clean it; I want S&W to see it in the exact condition I received it new. Maybe it doesn't affect accuracy, but I can't imagine that chewing up the bullet in three places on one side as it enters the barrel is a good thing. At the very least, it'll foul like crazy.

As far as what I think of this "new style rifling", MIM and locks don't bother me. I understand MIM and the locks will be removed on any gun I bet my family's life on. If this "new style rifling" doesn't rise to the level of manufacturing defect, then it's sloppy, shoddy workmanship and has no place on a quality firearm. Personally, I think it's a defect. I've checked other M29s at local dealers and most looked good which shows S&W is capable of producing clean rifling with the new process.

 

[Arisin Wind]

"Within specs." I hear that all the time. When you make the specs - anything is then acceptable.

 

[cold rain]

I got a call back from Kate, the customer service supervisor. She left a message on my voice mail.

She said the gun is being shipped back to me. She said the barrel is “within specs”; there is nothing wrong with the barrel.

I called her back and, of course, got her voice mail again and told her if this is the case, why doesn’t S&W put something on their web pages or in the manual that says that this is normal.

Hey, S&W, show us a picture of what to expect and tell us about the wonderful accuracy of the “new style rifling”. Because now, some of us who do look inside the barrel are going to think that the “new style rifling” is a problem, like the manufacturing defect that it looks like.

The stupid part is that S&W will pay to ship it both ways to tell you that the rifling is within specs. What kind of business sense is this? Heck, I own a few shares of S&W but this does not bode well for their future if this is the way they’re doing business.

From my Scottrade.com account I got the following:

Insider Activity: It has been over a year since an insider at SWHC has made a purchase of company stock. Presumably, insiders have not had high expectations for price appreciation in the stock.

Great, this is what the upper management of S&W is doing about SWHC stock? I’m beginning to see why the insiders don’t have high expectations.

I’ll shoot this thing and have some fun with it. I’m not buying another new S&W gun though and when I make a couple of bucks I'm dumping their stock.

 

[ira41magfan]

Originally posted by MidnightCookieMonster:

My new 610-3 is a 4" mdl and has those same micro-grooves the length of the barrel and are in each groove. The raised part, the "Lands"?, are all smooth.

It fowls horribly but after reading all in this thread, I believe my efforts are futile.

It shoots ok but cleaning takes more time.

Will probably be my last New S&W.

 

[DCWilson]

I bought three new S&W revolvers last year -- a 629, a 649 and a 460XVR. Not one of them shows the groove problems seen in the photos on this thread, but I was surprised on close inspection to see that the surfacing in the forcing cone of all three was kind of rough. I'm not knowledgeable about manufacturing processes, but I would have thought the taper could have been surfaced a little better.

The close inspection did show me a couple of other things that I hadn't noticed previously. The 649 had a steel sliver -- threading waste, I suppose -- caught in the housing between barrel and frame. I managed to pick out with a fingernail, but I was surprised it hadn't been brushed or buffed away at the factory. And I was surprised to see the sharp edges at the rear end of the barrel on the .44 and .357. The 460 has a polished and smoothed barrel end, reportedly to better bear the temperatures and pressures generated by the powerful rounds that revolver is intended to handle. The other revolvers could benefit cosmetically from the same treatment.

I understand the observations about QC and fit and finish. For the prices I paid, I guess I would have appreciated another five minutes or so of inspection and cleaning before the gun went in the case.

As to the share price, that decline must reflect investors' concern about the huge debt S&W took on to acquire Thompson/Center last year. I think there were some lower than hoped earnings projections, too. Even if every revolver they shipped this year had no need for a return trip to the factory, I bet the fundamentals would still hold that share price down.

 

[ira41magfan]

Originally posted by ira41magfan:

My new 610-3 is a 4" mdl and has those same micro-grooves the length of the barrel and are in each groove. The raised part, the "Lands"?, are all smooth.

It fowls horribly but after reading all in this thread, I believe my efforts are futile.

It shoots ok but cleaning takes more time.

Will probably be my last New S&W.

I think I'll spend some time with the bore paste and maybe a little polishing will lessen the fowling.

 

[trapper189]

No call from S&W yesterday, but UPS just dropped the gun of today and, drum roll please, rebarrelled. It looks great; grooves and lands smooth all the way down and the forcing cone is smoother as well. I think the B/C gap is a little tighter as well. I'm happy.

 

[David Kachel]

Originally posted by MidnightCookieMonster:
- quote " S&W's 'new' rifling process" and they insist "it is within S&W's current specifications".

Dear S&W,
There seems to be some confusion... the fact that things like this are "within" your specifications is exactly what S&W owners are pissed about.

 

[Tom in Athens]

I just stumbled across this thread. I recently purchased the same Lew Horton M29 (except blued) but have yet to shoot it. Is this problem readily visible to the naked (and middle aged) eye without a bore scope or do I need to shoot it first to see where the leading and fouling builds up? Thanks, Tom

 

[MidnightCookieMonster]

Tom,
No need to shoot it first...It's actually parent steel in the rifling grooves caused by a chipped electrode in S&W's ECM rifling process, not fouling. It's visible with the naked eye...also a bore-light or such up the muzzle end helps you to see it more clearly...
I have the blued version too - love mine except for this!
Good Luck!
MCM

 

[MaineProbation]

Hmmm! Makes me grateful that the only .44 Magnums I have are a 6 1/2" pre-Model 29 blue from 1957 and a 4" Model 29 nickel from 1973.

 

[S42N8]

Glad I sold my 29-10 when I did. I think I'll stick to S&Ws made in the late 50s/early 60s. Of course, I just bought (DOH!) a 19-4.

Hope S&W makes this right. BTW, for those who shipped the weapons back to S&W, did you challenge them to shoot it for accuracy? May be able to shame them into replacing a barrel because it doesn't shoot "within spec."

 

[GF]

I feel for you guys. In the future, stay closer to the -S&W Revolvers 1945 (than) to the Present- and things should be OK.
Posters will still say the new guns are just as good as the old ones.
Bullshit.
S&W should make it right with you if your not happy. If WE don't buy their guns who will.

 

[M29since14]

If WE don't buy their guns who will.

Thousands and thousands who don't even know what rifling should look like.

Of course I agree 100% that what we see looks like something they should take an interest in, to say the least.

 

[myakkaman]

Just checked my 629-6CHV98xx, lands smooth as glass after my last cleaning, I shoot the 240 Hornady swagged in front of 7.5 Unique in special brass. Very accurate load at 25, going 2 inches and under. I am lucky I suppose. I do notice that the forcing cone is rough though, and I too had that sliver stuff.