Interesting NYC police shootout ...

[mc5aw]

Interesting from the perspective of how many rounds the LEOs fired, as well as to the weapon the perp was carrying. Otherwise, another tragedy at the hands of someone who should not have been walking the streets as a free man.

Cops shoot suspect after he kills sleeping 13-year-old sister, wounds mom in Harlem shootout - NYPOST.com

 

[bitstream]

Well, how many times did they HIT the guy?

 

[mc5aw]

The article says he had 14 bullet wounds (!), but obviously none were fatal. I didn't realize NYPD were allowed to carry three hi-cap mags. Luckily those officers weren't seriously hurt.

BTW: That Saturday Night Special is unbelievably primitive ...

 

[bitstream]

Yep, you're right it does say 14 bullet wounds. I missed it.

So, they hit 14/84 times for 17% at 23 yards (they said 70 feet). That probably isn't bad for that range and under stress.

Fourteen hits and I presume that NYPD uses 9mm...

Let the caliber wars comments begin!

 

[sixshot]

Any of you ever been shot at.....just asking.

Dick

 

[mc5aw]

Dick makes a very valid point. Those LEOs were under duress ... I'm not commenting on the # of rounds fired as a function of the officers' ability/inability to hit a target, but rather the # of rounds as an aggregate total in a street shoot out. Unfortunately, this stat will no doubt be brought up and hammered relentlessly by some some civil rights legal eagle trying to portray the LEOs in a negative light. I grew up in NYC and remember numerous cases like this. In every one, NYPD was run through the ringer.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

84 rounds fired at the perp, approximately 70 feet away, the perp fired one round that hit the radio car, from a piece of **** saturday night special. Yeah, I agree, that's pretty interesting. Lot's of questions for the NYPD Firearms & Tactics Section. I'm wondering if the two officers involved were plainclothes/detectives, since they were "by coincidence" investigating another crime from an adjoining precinct? If so, likely carrying smaller sidearms than the uniform service weapons.

It is impossible to make any tactical judgement based on the NY Post account. It's pretty vague on the fact pattern of the actual shootout and typically sensational considering their emphasis of the number of rounds fired by the cops without reporting the explanation for that. How predictable from an anti gun rag like the NY Post. They haven't exactly shared a glowing reputation as a police friendly publication, in my experience. Could be many reasons why so many rounds were fired, so I won't even speculate on that issue.

My congratulations to both officers involved. I'll gladly replace their ammunition and throw in a spare third magazine at my expense in case the next one is 80 feet or more. You guys really, really need a patrol rifle in every (RMP) car.

Every news clip I see of NYC has cops and military walking around in BDU's (we used to call them fatigues) with sub guns at the airports and on the subway's.....guess the patrol division guy's in Harlem don't rate. I'm grateful the officers got the job done without injury to themselves or to other innocents. GOOD ON THEM! I won't even bother to remark on the perp, he was a waste of otherwise good ammunition.

Cheers;
Lefty

Here's a photo of a NYC Detective back when a Winchester 1894 rode in at least one radio car in every precinct and probably not more than that. I was told by my elders, the Winchesters '94's first introduced into use by the NYPD during prohibition, were usually neglected, in poor repair and the ammunition (by the late 1930's into WWII because of the war shortage of ammo) was usually corroded and un-useable, they provided their own. They all had unauthorized "trunk guns" and that little known secret practice continued through the subsequent decades, despite official policy to the contrary...or so I was told.

Detective Wolf, photo courtesy of a S&W Forum member and retired N.J. State Trooper.

 

[m1gunner]

BTW: That Saturday Night Special is unbelievably primitive ...

IIRC, they sold for around $10 back in the day.

I have one like new in the box. It is crude, but it works, and goes bang when the trigger is pulled.

 

[mc5aw]

Lefty ... That's a great photo. Pre or post WW II? The car (what little is visible) looks early '40s.

 

[youseemym&p]

you also have to take into account that the NYPD carries the Glock 17. and while the stock model is highly accurate you have to think they have the NYPD 9lb trigger. which severely hampers accuracy.

i've fired one of these and its like taking a SA/DA revolver and shooting it repetitively DA only.

not to mention i dont want to know what this guy is on to take 14 hollow points and still be able to hold his weapon.

 

[bitstream]

Any of you ever been shot at.....just asking.

Dick

Hey, I said I it wasn't bad for that range and under stress.

They do need to have a rifle around as flatfoot recommends.

 

[Stu Honea]

Great photos! God bless ALL the old flat foots.

 

[OLDFED]

Sounds like a job for a 12 gauge.

 

[charlie sherrill]

I don't know what the situation was here but one of the things they teach you now is to fire while running for cover. You can do that now because you have more ammo vs. the six rounds and a slow reload you used to have. The two times I attracted some lead were before the transition to the highcap stuff. In the first situation the perp got off a poorly aimed .22 before being put down by my partner. Appparently partner's draw was a microsecond faster than mine. He fired one incredible shot from a S&W model 38 sending a reverse wadcutter through the perp's heart at over 25 yards. The model 38 was later sold to me for $50.00. I still have it. It's not for sale.

The second involved a late night armed robbery. I correctly guessed the escape route and when I hit him with a spotlight I was rewarded with what sounded like bumblebees flying in my direction. Even though his shots were wild I could still hear an occassional .22 shot hitting my patrol car (three hits on the car) as I emptied my model 19 out the window in the perp's direction. By the time I could crawl out the passenger door with my Ithaca riot gun he was gone. We found out who he was a few days later and a few days after that he was killed by a "business associate" in Chicago.

Even though there are lots of armchair type people who want to second guess the actions of the police, mostly to boost their own agenda, this is one of those things where you don't start throwing blame and accusations around until all the facts are in. It is my opinion the pucker factor is something that is scientifically impossible to calculate. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt.

 

[jlrhiner]

Yes to the question, and in my opinion, everything worked out fine. They carried enough ammo.

(and no, I don't like 9mm, but that's a personal choice)

Thank the good Lord we're not talking about more injured police officers.

 

[youseemym&p]

I don't know what the situation was here but one of the things they teach you now is to fire while running for cover. You can do that now because you have more ammo vs. the six rounds and a slow reload you used to have. The two times I attracted some lead were before the transition to the highcap stuff. In the first situation the perp got off a poorly aimed .22 before being put down by my partner. Appparently partner's draw was a microsecond faster than mine. He fired one incredible shot from a S&W model 38 sending a reverse wadcutter through the perp's heart at over 25 yards. The model 38 was later sold to me for $50.00. I still have it. It's not for sale.

The second involved a late night armed robbery. I correctly guessed the escape route and when I hit him with a spotlight I was rewarded with what sounded like bumblebees flying in my direction. Even though his shots were wild I could still hear an occassional .22 shot hitting my patrol car (three hits on the car) as I emptied my model 19 out the window in the perp's direction. By the time I could crawl out the passenger door with my Ithaca riot gun he was gone. We found out who he was a few days later and a few days after that he was killed by a "business associate" in Chicago.

Even though there are lots of armchair type people who want to second guess the actions of the police, mostly to boost their own agenda, this is one of those things where you don't start throwing blame and accusations around until all the facts are in. It is my opinion the pucker factor is something that is scientifically impossible to calculate. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt.

agreed! we can all hit paper targets at 25 yards all day long with pretty decent grouping.

but having a massive adrenaline dump, firing at a moving live target at 25 yards........isnt a picknick. i think these officers did just fine in the circumstances.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Lefty ... That's a great photo. Pre or post WW II? The car (what little is visible) looks early '40s.

I'm guessing the photo depicting Det. Wolf with the car and rifle is early 1940's...maybe during WWII, probably. The other photo of Det. Wolf would suggest that it was taken perhaps at his home or with some family celebration upon his promotion to Detective 3rd. I'm not sure about the commendation he is wearing above the shield. It resembles the "Excellent Police Service" he may have been awarded previously as a Patrolman, but typically in those days, a Patrolman was promoted into the Bureau (NYPD Detective Bureau....now referred to as the Detective Division for many years since then) for valor or some other outstanding service. It could be the Combat Cross or Medal of Honor. I never researched him so I don't really know . He appears younger than in the waterfront pier photo, at least to my old eyes and the shield, probably not a dupe (duplicate) appears to be of the old turn of the century early 1900's style. I've run across some of these variants. He's also not wearing the collar device of a detective yet which tells me he's newly promoted. But again my guess from the latter photo with the Winchester is that it was taken in Brooklyn and he was likely assigned to a Brooklyn South precinct.

Anyway, they had the right idea having a carbine handy, and cops who were smart enough not to trust them for ammunition or maintenance.

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[charlie sherrill]

On another note. Did you notice the plain clothes officer in the above picture was wearing what appeared to be some kink of gun belt under his coat? Wouldn't you like to know what was under that coat? I would.

 

[amazingflapjack]

As was discussed, especially in a fire fight situation like this, some rounds are fired as "strategy" and some are fired as a specific "tactic." That is why the "strategy" in military parlance is to gain, and then maintain, fire superiority. If one side loses the ability to fire, or return fire, then the other side will eventually over run them. This is the aim in fire and movement in a squad or platoon sized element. In this kind of exorcise, fire disipline is at least as important as fire accuracy, in my view. This is the proper use of high capacity, high volume fire, not to compensate for poor accuracy. If both elements in a situation like this are relatively equal in their ability to employ this tactic/strategy, someone will ultimately have to expose himself "at the wrong time" in order to get the job done, and neutralize the opposing element. That's where the aforementioned "pucker factor" comes in. It ain't like the movies.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

He fired one incredible shot from a S&W model 38 sending a reverse wadcutter through the perp's heart at over 25 yards.

Charlie;

Well, call it good luck, call it great marksmanship, call it what you like...I call it exactly what guys like me, (the list of experienced and well known combat police veterans is endless, I'm not listing names) have to say about the performance of 2 inch small frame revolvers like the Model 38 Bodyguard in a gunfight. I'm sure some readers will doubt that account, I certainly do not. I've seen repeatedly over the years how effective a snub revolver can be in the hands of a cool headed, steady and competent shooter. When you only had 5 rounds and maybe a reload, you made sure you were on top of your game or else. Maybe your partner was lucky, I don't know, but if he was, I know an awful bunch of other cops who were coincidentally, just as lucky as he was.

Cheers;
Lefty