Interesting NYC police shootout ...

charlie sherrill said:
On another note. Did you notice the plain clothes officer in the above picture was wearing what appeared to be some kink of gun belt under his coat? Wouldn't you like to know what was under that coat? I would.
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A S&W M&P 1905 4th. Hand Ejector .38 Special, 4 inch barrel, as per the forum member who provided this photo and bought the revolver with all the provenance from the family. I made him a reproduction of the holster Det. Wolf was probably wearing under his suit jacket. But from the tilt of the belt and the way he's shown holding the rifle, my guess is he was probably 'A LEFTY".....HA!

Cheers;
Lefty
 
oldflatfoot said:
Charlie;

Well, call it good luck, call it great marksmanship, call it what you like...I call it exactly what guys like me, (the list of experienced and well known combat police veterans is endless, I'm not listing names) have to say about the performance of 2 inch small frame revolvers like the Model 38 Bodyguard in a gunfight. I'm sure some readers will doubt that account, I certainly do not. I've seen repeatedly over the years how effective a snub revolver can be in the hands of a cool headed, steady and competent shooter. When you only had 5 rounds and maybe a reload, you made sure you were on top of your game or else. Maybe your partner was lucky, I don't know, but if he was, I know an awful bunch of other cops who were coincidentally, just as lucky as he was.

Cheers;
Lefty
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agreed as well. i saw a video of bob munden *cant find it to post* but he took a snubby .38 and popped a target that was far enough away you cant see it until you hear the clink in the video haha

edit: here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk
 
amazingflapjack said:
As was discussed, especially in a fire fight situation like this, some rounds are fired as "strategy" and some are fired as a specific "tactic." That is why the "strategy" in military parlance is to gain, and then maintain, fire superiority. If one side loses the ability to fire, or return fire, then the other side will eventually over run them. This is the aim in fire and movement in a squad or platoon sized element. In this kind of exorcise, fire disipline is at least as important as fire accuracy, in my view. This is the proper use of high capacity, high volume fire, not to compensate for poor accuracy. If both elements in a situation like this are relatively equal in their ability to employ this tactic/strategy, someone will ultimately have to expose himself "at the wrong time" in order to get the job done, and neutralize the opposing element. That's where the aforementioned "pucker factor" comes in. It ain't like the movies.
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My guess is that they remained at the car for cover considering where this took place while waiting for back up. I doubt they left their position while waiting for the cavalry to arrive. This was only 2 guys, not a squad. Just my speculation. Seems like the perp was "holed up" and wasn't running and they were keeping him in the box.

Cheers;
Lefty
 
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17% hit ratio? That,people,is deplorable.I'm not typing that because I'm some armchair commando who hates cops.An Air Force Security Policeman was able to end a shoutout with a crazed guy packing a MAK-90 using a military issue Beretta loaded with 115 grain FMJ ammo.The bad guy died when shot #3 hit him in the base of the neck.Range was a confirmed 70 yards as meaured by the military.

Another incident similar to this took place in LA recently,on tape.A carjacker pulled into a populated gas station and drew his piece in the car.LAPD -all 6 odd responding patrol officers-fired 60 rounds total,hitting the guy in the head with zero civil casualties.If stress of the situation really resulted in degraded performance,we'd see a 17% hit ratio at every LEO involved shootout.We don't.

I shudder to think of the consequences if this man had something more substantial than a Rhom .22lr.NYPD needs to change their training standards ASAP.Blaming the 'NY1' trigger is bunk ;plenty of officers make good use of double action revolvers and and semi-autos.I hope someone deep in the guts of the NYPD changes the training regimen for the better *yesterday*,before they run into their version of Laurel Canyon and end up facing down determined bad guys with long arms and body armor.
 
youseemym&p said:
you also have to take into account that the NYPD carries the Glock 17. and while the stock model is highly accurate you have to think they have the NYPD 9lb trigger. which severely hampers accuracy.

i've fired one of these and its like taking a SA/DA revolver and shooting it repetitively DA only.

not to mention i dont want to know what this guy is on to take 14 hollow points and still be able to hold his weapon.
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12 lb....I'm not NYPD but I have friends who are...need 2 people to pull that trigger back....worse on Glocks than on the Sig 226 I tried...NYC have(had) choice of, please correct me if I'm wrong...DA 226, Glock 19 and S&W 5946..off duty a K9 was allowed but not anymore...a friend felt, not certain, was because of the NYPD armorer fooling with an already heavy trigger, the gun had failure issues and was taken off the list as no good...I'm sure it worked fine out the box, factory.
 
Well, it sounds like another ringing endorsement for the 9mm.

We had a shootout a couple of years back where some drunk who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory and booze decided to play Quickdraw McGraw against a half dozen sheriffs and state troopers with a Smith & Wesson 686. He was pulled over and when he got out he came out firing, one sheriff was hit in the vest in the chest and went down but was not seriously hurt, another took a .357 that actually detonated his pepper spray canister, and he took shrapnel wounds under the corner of his vest. Well the bad guy got his wish and took more than a dozen hits from both .223 and .45 ACP including one to the chest and a .45 to the noggin. I have read the autopsy and the guy was basically turned into something close to swiss cheese. I have no idea how many rounds were actually fired but there was alot, at least fifty and probably alot more.
 
charlie sherrill said:
I don't know what the situation was here but one of the things they teach you now is to fire while running for cover. You can do that now because you have more ammo vs. the six rounds and a slow reload you used to have. The two times I attracted some lead were before the transition to the highcap stuff. In the first situation the perp got off a poorly aimed .22 before being put down by my partner. Appparently partner's draw was a microsecond faster than mine. He fired one incredible shot from a S&W model 38 sending a reverse wadcutter through the perp's heart at over 25 yards. The model 38 was later sold to me for $50.00. I still have it. It's not for sale.

The second involved a late night armed robbery. I correctly guessed the escape route and when I hit him with a spotlight I was rewarded with what sounded like bumblebees flying in my direction. Even though his shots were wild I could still hear an occassional .22 shot hitting my patrol car (three hits on the car) as I emptied my model 19 out the window in the perp's direction. By the time I could crawl out the passenger door with my Ithaca riot gun he was gone. We found out who he was a few days later and a few days after that he was killed by a "business associate" in Chicago.

Even though there are lots of armchair type people who want to second guess the actions of the police, mostly to boost their own agenda, this is one of those things where you don't start throwing blame and accusations around until all the facts are in. It is my opinion the pucker factor is something that is scientifically impossible to calculate. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt.
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there are lots of factors in these seemingly poor performance NY shoot outs.
infinite obstacles for the perps to play with. and that NY trigger specification of a 1.5 foot pull length at ... whats it up to now 47 pounds? or must it be equal to or greater than the recoil spring?
the cops themselves would be a fairly easy fix .. triple the qualification ranges and give em guns that CAN do it.
 
Let's just thank the Lord that neither officer was hit and that there were no civilian casualties.

On the other hand, I'm sure someone in the mayor's office is working on a solution to the problem regarding number of rounds fired. Probably limit magazines to 10 rounds and allow the officers to carry only one mag (except for the mayor's bodyguards of course).

CW
 
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charlie sherrill said:
On another note. Did you notice the plain clothes officer in the above picture was wearing what appeared to be some kink of gun belt under his coat? Wouldn't you like to know what was under that coat? I would.
Click to expand...

IIRC: In that era it was a fairly common practice for plainclothes officers to wear a second belt holding their weapon, holster and extra ammo.
 
David LaPell said:
Well, it sounds like another ringing endorsement for the 9mm.

We had a shootout a couple of years back where some drunk who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory and booze decided to play Quickdraw McGraw against a half dozen sheriffs and state troopers with a Smith & Wesson 686. He was pulled over and when he got out he came out firing, one sheriff was hit in the vest in the chest and went down but was not seriously hurt, another took a .357 that actually detonated his pepper spray canister, and he took shrapnel wounds under the corner of his vest. Well the bad guy got his wish and took more than a dozen hits from both .223 and .45 ACP including one to the chest and a .45 to the noggin. I have read the autopsy and the guy was basically turned into something close to swiss cheese. I have no idea how many rounds were actually fired but there was alot, at least fifty and probably alot more.
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Took a dozen hits .... how many did THEY fire? 250 rounds?
And here (below) is an endorsement of what 9mm can do if the person behind it can do their part.....
oh but the trigger on the Beretta is not 12 lbs....

Yeah...those NY cops should carry 223s instead....that way they could have sprayed the hood with 223 rounds instead of their measly nines...

NOooooooooooooooo....they had NOTHING to do with the misses...it was all that Nasty GLOCKS fault.... did you miss the post some ways back about the cop killing the perp with one round from a snub 38?
These guys could not shoot plain and simple.

This guy could I guess...

A hero

That is the referenced shooting from above. And wow.... he didn't fire 84 rounds????

And wow...he didn't even wait for back up... or HAVE cover. He just could shoot. There's a novel idea. Train a cop to shoot. I think Massad Ayoob recommends that too. He actually had a write up of this Air Policeman's shooting also.

Actually, here it is:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_1_34/ai_n56222398/

4 for 4 hits under duress. AT seventy yards. Being fired on. By more than a .22. If that matters. Guess he was lucky huh? Ya know...with the underpowered NINE and all. HE TRAINED. These guys may try it.

Oh...first shot by Air Policeman was double action.......AND a hit. In fact, he had NO misses. AT 70 Yards...

Yeah....musta been that GLOCK.
 
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Over the years there has been a lot of criticism of marksmanship by the NYPD. Back in the late '70s or early '80s, there was an article in "Guns" or "American Handgunner" on the subject. A consultant brought in after a bunch of bystander shootings, etc., declared that NYPD cops he'd interviewed seemed not to know what the front sight was for.

From what I've seen recently, the NYPD has far more issues with judgment than accuracy. They seem to paint themselves into corners that they then feel the need to shoot themselves out of. The Dorismond and bachelor party shootings are only two examples.
 
800 rounds fired with 4 hits on the badguy. most rounds were stopped by the deputy's stolen durango or were used to stop the durango as he tried to get away. when youre being shot at by a bad guy and you have a lot and i mean a lot of nervous rookies beside you firing without aiming...you get this.
dont have a pic of the durango but you can imagine.....
Alabama Cops Shooting - YouTube
 
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When I read this in the news this morning, I wonder if they thought they were shooting one of those monsters from a "slasher" movie. One of the officers ran completely dry, wonder what his thought was about then?
 
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