inverted HBWC

[gwpercle]

I loaded some a few years ago. They expand to the size of a half dollar! I loaded them on top of 3 grs. of Bullseye in 38 spl. cases.

Same here, the trick is not to try for too much velocity. 3.0 grains of bullseye was just the ticket for solving the tumble/accuracy issue. They did expand nicely. I keep looking for these bullets at the gunshop but so far they been out.

That gas check on the HBWC base sounds like a good idea.

Gary

 

[Nevada Ed]

I shot 3.3grs of Bullseye in my J frame snub today and the
group was twice the size that I normally get with my load
of 3.1, which is Alliants max for the 38 special target data.

Best accuracy in my 2" and 6" is the old stand by load of 2.7 grs.

 

[Forrest r]

When your able to make your own the different alloys will allow the hbwc's to be driven a lot harder/faster.

I cast my hbwc's to 11/12bhn and tumble lube them. These hbwc's can be driven @ target speeds (2.7gr bullseye 38spl, 5.0gr wst 44spl) or heated up with no problem. I had the cast hbwc's chrony'd @ over 1100fps with some different loads with no problems & good accuracy. I normally just use these cast hbwc's at target velocities like they were intended. I have make/cast/swage better bullets than these for hp's.



I find it interesting that in all the posts that everyone refers to old outdated mag articles on this subject (hbwc's turned backwards). And only the 38spl is talked about. This isn't the 60's, 70's,80's, etc, it's the 2000& teens & we as casters/shooters/reloaders have the ability to make our own lead & jacketed hbwc's.

Some cast 35cal hbwc's & jacketed hbwc's top:
44cal cast hbwc's & jacketed hbwc's bottom:



A cast hbwc fired from a snub nosed 44spl:



Some jacketed hbwc's fired from a 38spl & 44spl snubnosed revolver.



The revolvers these bullets were shot out of.




Old data/articles are ok but it's also nice to think outside the box and put yourself in a situation where you can make your own bullets. As many as you want, as hard or soft as you want, as large or small as you want, whatever lube you want. Or have the ability to make jacketed hbwc's for firearms that won't stablize the store bought lead bullets.

 

[Pigirondan]

Same here, the trick is not to try for too much velocity. 3.0 grains of bullseye was just the ticket for solving the tumble/accuracy issue. They did expand nicely. I keep looking for these bullets at the gunshop but so far they been out.

That gas check on the HBWC base sounds like a good idea.

Gary

This load worked well for me too, but only in a full size K frame, not the J.

 

[Frank237]

I can recall way back in the early 1970's Either Skelton or Cooper mentioning reversed WC's in snubbies. They also suggested running them through a lube/sizer and crimping a gas check onto the nose.

Like many of you I loaded some way back. But my results accuracy wise were abysmal. So I gave up and carried my 168 gr Keith slugs over 5.0 of Unique in my M-60.

At the same time Jeff Cooper also wrote about hard cast H&G #68 200 gr Target SWC's over a stiff load of Unique as HIS personal defense load in 1911's.

We have come a LONG way since then.

FN in MT

 

[hotrod150]

I've handloaded for many years but never took up bullet casting. Store-bought cast, swaged, & jacketed bullets met my needs pretty well, and I never saw the need to mfr my own. But casting your own definitely has it's advantages-- a custom mold could be designed to produce a HBWC with a shallower cavity which would be better suited for reverse loading. The CG would be farther forward to eliminate the in-flight tumbling. This custom HBWC could be made a bit shorter, or the same length but a bit heavier than 148.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

We be old...

I find it interesting that in all the posts that everyone refers to old outdated mag articles on this subject (hbwc's turned backwards). This isn't the 60's, 70's, 80's....

Hey, we can't help it that we're all Baby Boomers!!

 

[Nevada Ed]

I know all about old..........

I remember the gas and food stamps from pictures and when
I was around nine years old the folks used my tongue to put the S&H stamps in the booklets !!

Pet milk again ??

Sorry about getting off target.....struck a nerve.

 

[Forrest r]

Well, I'm not all that young, part of the tail end of the baby boomers myself. I just choose not to live in the past, the last 5 years has brought advances in casting/swaging/reloading with leaps & bounds. Custom molds, pb gas checks, new die makers for swaging along with the use of shell cases for bullet jackets all have come a long way in a hurry.

I've cast & swaged bullets for decades but I probably shoot a tad bit more than most reloaders on this forum. It takes 250# to 300# of lead a year (10,000+ bullets) to last the year & that's not counting the mouse fart guns. I'd rather buy/use my own bullet making equipment then spend $800+ a year paying someone else along with the shipping $$$$.

 

[loc n load]

Inverted HBWC's

I carried inverted WC's over bullseye in my M-49 "bug" back in the 70's for years, also had a load that I borrowed from Dean Grenell using a charge of 2400 driving a inverted HBWC that I used in my 2" mod 10 and 12.....I have several of these that I recovered from shooting water soaked Sears and JC penny catalogs, the bullets mushroomed fully in those mediums, so I had no doubts about them in "soft mediums".....I still have that habit of loading them "backwards" from time to time.

 

[Nevada Ed]

2400 for a 148 HBwc !!!

I know what I can get in my M49 with that powder with a BIG heavy 158 Lswc............that little guy has to be really moving.

If the BG is inside nine feet, you probably need to call the FIRE Department, also !!!

Mercy..............

 

[WR Moore]

Being a senior citizen I recall the days of the reversed HBWC quite well. In fact I still have a few, and ran a couple over the chronograph back in 2009.

I had really good success with them using the Speer HBWC back in the late 1960s. Then came a day when I looked at a slug from a new box and realized there was something different about the cavity in the base. Naturally, I didn't have any leftovers to compare with (that I recall). The "different" product wouldn't group worth a darn and stabilty was a definate issue.

At any rate, the ones I chrono'd were loaded in .357 magnum cases and clocked 1400 fps. Back in the day, a hit in the bottom of a quart sized sealed beverage can would be quite spectacular. So was the leading

Given the factory products available today, there just isn't a need to fool with such things. In those days, about the only way to get a pistol bullet to expand (Remington's 240g SJHP excepted-at the time it was reputed to be the most expensively developed bullet in the world) was to shoot it into a concrete wall.

 

[loc n load]

Back in the day

I never shot that much of that load in the 2", but it was stout, and I don't remember what Dean said the FPS was, maybe he didn't......didn't have a chrono then, but I do now....I still have some those little beauties loaded up, may have to see what they clock at......and yep, that muzzle flash was pronounced....and I agree with the above post, all of that isn't really necessary nowadays with the wonderful advancements that our bullet designers have made.....but back in the 70's it wasn't that way as noted.....and my dept. issue back then was 158 gr. lead RN 38's......so I always figured that if I had to resort to my back up, then things had most certainly gone wrong, so it was "---- the torpedoes" and break out the inverted wadcutters.

2400 for a 148 HBwc !!!

I know what I can get in my M49 with that powder with a BIG heavy 158 Lswc............that little guy has to be really moving.

If the BG is inside nine feet, you probably need to call the FIRE Department, also !!!

Mercy..............

 

[Smithhound]

Like others I tried this years ago, at short range expansion was phenomenal, but at any distance accuracy was abysmal. I was packing a 2" M10 while hiking once and ran face to face with a skunk on a small trail, we both stood for a few seconds looking at each other, then he began to 'dance' on his front feet, which I took to mean I was about to get sprayed, I pulled that snubby and hit him in the chest area, just below his throat, that skunk instantly swelled up like a balloon and keeled over dead, no spray, no flopping, just DRT.
On my bullet board I still have an example of an expanded HBWC from those lots and I'd guess it is the size of a nickle.
One thing Ken Waters notes in his 'Pet Loads' is the problem of the center section of any HBWC detaching and leaving the 'skirt' of lead just inside the forcing cone. This, in his opinion, would explain low load HBWC bullets blowing up gun barrels back in the day. The next bullet has nowhere to go and just expands at that point, wrecking the gun.
Something to consider.
RD

 

[358156hp]

I too tried this in the past. However, I ran the calipers on my swaged Hornady HBWCs and found they were slightly too small in diameter to do me much good. The bullets ran about .356 as I recall, and I felt they would tumble if loaded hollow-base forward, and I was right. They did however shoot very well when loaded as designed, so the base could expand and seal the bore. The whole issue may simply be a matter of bullet fit. I've seen a number of success stories involving cast HBWCs flying straight.

 

[loc n load]

HBWC's

As noted in my above posts, I have loaded and shot inverted HBWC's......but I have also shot thousands of them loaded in the proper manner.....I competed in PPC and bullseye for years and have thousands of these bullets thru my custom PPC revolver, and my model 52......they are very accurate and I could simply shoot a "rathole" into the X and ten ring with these loads.....I have also shot thousands of these loads thru service revolvers and supervised the firing of hundreds of thousands of them over a period of years as an instructor. For precision target work with a handgun, they don't get any more accurate in my book.

 

[hotrod150]

.....I ran the calipers on my swaged Hornady HBWCs and found they were slightly too small in diameter to do me much good. The bullets ran about .356 as I recall, and I felt they would tumble if loaded hollow-base forward, and I was right. ......

Now did they tumble because they were slightly undersized, or did they tumble because they were now tail-heavy instead of nose-heavy? My guess would be the latter. After all, plenty of people have posted here about re-cylindering a 38 or 357 revolver to 9mm or 38 super-- those bullets are generaly .355 or .356 but they haven't reported any tumbling.

 

[shil]

Careful! I tried it years ago before I knew anything about airspace above the bullet. From an article, I reverse-loaded some Hornady HBWC's over a charge of Red Dot which I cross-checked in some manuals. The charge seemed ok on paper. The article said nothing about seating, so I seated the bullets to the case mouth as is typical for HBWC's. I couldn't imagine why, after firing, case extraction was so sticky! Now I know, but haven't tried the load again.

 

[oberon]

I carried inverted WC's over bullseye in my M-49 "bug" back in the 70's for years, also had a load that I borrowed from Dean Grenell using a charge of 2400 driving a inverted HBWC that I used in my 2" mod 10 and 12.....I have several of these that I recovered from shooting water soaked Sears and JC penny catalogs, the bullets mushroomed fully in those mediums, so I had no doubts about them in "soft mediums".....I still have that habit of loading them "backwards" from time to time.

I saw a Dean Grenell load like that in a '70s era handgun digest. I didn't duplicate it, but I have shot some bassackwards HBWCs as a direct result of that guy's little article.
Dean Grenell was and will always be my favorite gunwriter.
I will buy old literature for no other reason than it has some of his incredible writing talent in it. He was great: informative, intelligent, practical, and funny as hell.
He also wrote science fiction in the '50s or '60s.
The guy was a blast.
I reckon he was as responsible for my development in the home ordnance & ballsitics department as anyone.

 

[hotrod150]

Bump ...............