IRONIC! LOOK WHAT KEN HACKATHORN HAS TO SAY ON RDS

[chief38]

What makes folks think they need an "expert" to tell them they don't need Red Dot sights on a CC piece before they make that decision?

Absolutely nothing. I just thought he laid it out in a calm precise manner.

 

[Well Armed]

What makes folks think they need an "expert" to tell them they don't need Red Dot sights on a CC piece before they make that decision?

Started out with one anti red dot thread with a member stating why he thinks red dots are pointless and worthless on carry guns. Their rationale was challenged, and that prompted two more threads to do a forum poll. There was more back and forth debate. In those other threads this same Ken Hackathorn video was posted and/or referenced, and here's yet another thread.

To answer your question. What qualities them as "experts" is that they are old school, don't like red dots, and need to vocalize to everyone else why red dots are bad. It's all in vain. Despite for they feel, optics on pistols are popular and are becoming even more common as time goes on. All manufacturer manufacturers have optic cuts as an option with some not even offering a non optic cut options. Special Forces, law enforcement, popular firearm instructors, and many Americans all utilize optics on their handguns.

I say to each their own. I'd tell a newbies or even older timers to get a handgun with an optic cut if available. They'll have the option to use or not use it. I'd also recommend getting good with both by putting in the time and effort BEFORE making a bunch of assumptions and listening to what others tell them. That way they can make an informed decision.

 

[Well Armed]

• We have those on other forums who start threads about and are convinced that revolvers and DA/SA handguns are inferior for carry.
• Then there are those who will argue that 1911s are also inferior and should NOT be carried for EDC because of capacity, weight, and safeties that apparently no one will be able to swip off or actuate under duress.
• Then there's the the thumb-safety vs no safety holy war.
• Then we have the night sights vs no night sights debate where the argument is "if you can't see your sights, you can't see your target," so they strongly argue that those who buy night sights foolishly waste their money.
• Then you have those who are anti micro gun. They believe everyone should carry a duty sized handgun like a Glock 19 or 17. They beleive anyone abd everyone can EDC those on a daily basis, they should dress around the gun, get a better holster and belt, and those who aren't doing all of the aforementioned are putting their lives at risk.
• Then we have the capacity wars where anything less than 10+1 rounds is argued to be a death sentence.
• Then we have the snobs who believe only firearms that are at a particular price point and/or have been issue to a first world police department or military is worth carrying. Anyone who has anything else is doomed to die in a gun fight when their firearm fails because they didn't spend enough (what's your life worth) or because the gun wasn't vetted by police or military.
• Then we have the great caliber war. The 9mm folks believe that because "great strides in 9mm technology" that 9mm is the equivalent to or better than all other popular handgun rounds. You also have the other side who thinks anything other the man stopping one shot stoppers 10mm or 45acp is good enough for self-defense.
• We also have the group who will start threads and go out of their way to bash 40s&w because the 9mm, 45acp, and 10mm guys have a grudge against 40s&w because 40s&w has been constantly been compared to their favorite fanboy calibers.....

Now, the new kid on the block, e.i., red dot optics (RDS), is getting it's time to shine. There's nothing new under the sun when it comes to the firearm community.

 

[lrrifleman]

I guess that I am the person that posted the first RDS thread that got this going. I'm sorry that it was perceived as anti-RDS! I am learning how to use an RDS on my target pistols, and making slow progress.

However, I perceived an issue that I was encountering on the range, and presumed that it could carry over as an issue on an EDC. Therefore, I asked a question. I'm sorry that some have taken offense to my trying to obtain some clarity. So the record is clear, I am NOT anti-RDS, but at this point in time, I can't envision an RDS on my EDC. Somethings, people need to find out for themselves, that can be supplemented by asking a question, or exposure to the school of hard knocks.

 

[326MOD10]

I didn't perceive your thread as anti-RDS at all. I viewed it as a person with a question.

You have nothing to apologize for.

It is the bashing and all the spinoff of the same topic for more bashing that gets old.

And in the same vein saying the same thing 10 people before you said. That is a product of the "I gotta get my likes" world we live in.

 

[ladder13]

I guess that I am the person that posted the first RDS thread that got this going. I'm sorry that it was perceived as anti-RDS! I am learning how to use an RDS on my target pistols, and making slow progress.

However, I perceived an issue that I was encountering on the range, and presumed that it could carry over as an issue on an EDC. Therefore, I asked a question. I'm sorry that some have taken offense to my trying to obtain some clarity. So the record is clear, I am NOT anti-RDS, but at this point in time, I can't envision an RDS on my EDC. Somethings, people need to find out for themselves, that can be supplemented by asking a question, or exposure to the school of hard knocks.

No issue here, you're good.

Once upon time, even here when I joined, it was a ruckus, but thread drift was kind of frowned upon.

Nowadays, if you get to post 3 without thread drift count it as fortunate.

The preceding post was spot on.

 

[steelslaver]

My musket don't need none of that riflily stuff, makes it harder and takes longer to load

Those percussion caps deals are only a fad, what if you run out

Those cartridge revolvers will never replace cap and ball revolvers because those new fangled cartridges are all fine and good until you run out of them

That there smokeless powder will just blow up yer gun

Those semi automatic pistols are just a fad, never be as reliably are revolvers.

 

[AJ]

My musket don't need none of that riflily stuff, makes it harder and takes longer to load

Those percussion caps deals are only a fad, what if you run out

Those cartridge revolvers will never replace cap and ball revolvers because those new fangled cartridges are all fine and good until you run out of them

That there smokeless powder will just blow up yer gun

Those semi automatic pistols are just a fad, never be as reliably are revolvers.

Jim,

Were you there and starting those?

AJ

 

[yeti]

I guess that I am the person that posted the first RDS thread that got this going. I'm sorry that it was perceived as anti-RDS! I am learning how to use an RDS on my target pistols, and making slow progress.

However, I perceived an issue that I was encountering on the range, and presumed that it could carry over as an issue on an EDC. Therefore, I asked a question. I'm sorry that some have taken offense to my trying to obtain some clarity. So the record is clear, I am NOT anti-RDS, but at this point in time, I can't envision an RDS on my EDC. Somethings, people need to find out for themselves, that can be supplemented by asking a question, or exposure to the school of hard knocks.

I didn't perceive your post as anti-RDO/S either.
I think it is a constructive topic. I am a fan of RDO's. Plenty of shooters are probably considering adding a RDO and may benefit from the discussion points both pro and con. With most things...there is a trade off somewhere.
Recognizing that there may be a downside is not exactly bashing.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I like it. I'll rephrase Well Armed's post because I really like it.

9mm vs .45 ACP.
Bear guns/.44 vs .45 vs. 357. Never mind long arms.
Double action vs. single action.
Pistol vs revolver.
High cap vs pocket pistol.
Pocket carry vs appendix IWB.


There are other variations of the dead horse-type thread but they make some wonderful discussions and make folks think. I like them all. And, guess what, I have an opinion, too!

IMNSHO, the problem with red dot sights is two-fold. First, it is really hard to argue that they have any real value in a defensive, concealed carry handgun. You can argue until you're blue in the face about how much easier it is to get on target and make accurate shots but that's range talk. Now, if you're a security guard, LEO, and probably even a Soldier in the field, with large weapons at the ready, I'll agree that RDSs are valuable. With constant practice, a skilled warrior with an electronic device on his weapon is not to be sneezed at. Or do so at your peril. But for the average citizen, the technology is not worthwhile. Your defensive distances are up close and personal and finding your red dot to place on your target is a complete waste of time. Point shooting is a far more valuable skill to inculcate for saving your life or the lives of others. But YMMV and obviously there is wide disagreement.

The second issue is concealability. If you're concealing a service-sized weapon on any kind of belt holster, and lots of folks do this, more power to you. The RDS doesn't change your concealment tactics much if you're comfortable with a large pistol on your belt. BUT! If you're concealing J frames, pocket/micro pistols, or even just compact pistols in any caliber the art of concealment is lost with any electronic device you can place on it except, perhaps, a laser under the barrel. (Not for me but those are concealable.) The technology is wonderful and has its place but not in the world of concealed carry for most folks. As always, YMMV.

Not to be a jerk about it but I practice what I preach:

 

[AJ]

I like it. I'll rephrase Well Armed's post because I really like it.

9mm vs .45 ACP.
Bear guns/.44 vs .45 vs. 357. Never mind long arms.
Double action vs. single action.
Pistol vs revolver.
High cap vs pocket pistol.
Pocket carry vs appendix IWB.


There are other variations of the dead horse-type thread but they make some wonderful discussions and make folks think. I like them all. And, guess what, I have an opinion, too!

IMNSHO, the problem with red dot sights is two-fold. First, it is really hard to argue that they have any real value in a defensive, concealed carry handgun. You can argue until you're blue in the face about how much easier it is to get on target and make accurate shots but that's range talk. Now, if you're a security guard, LEO, and probably even a Soldier in the field, with large weapons at the ready, I'll agree that RDSs are valuable. With constant practice, a skilled warrior with an electronic device on his weapon is not to be sneezed at. Or do so at your peril. But for the average citizen, the technology is not worthwhile. Your defensive distances are up close and personal and finding your red dot to place on your target is a complete waste of time. Point shooting is a far more valuable skill to inculcate for saving your life or the lives of others. But YMMV and obviously there is wide disagreement.

The second issue is concealability. If you're concealing a service-sized weapon on any kind of belt holster, and lots of folks do this, more power to you. The RDS doesn't change your concealment tactics much if you're comfortable with a large pistol on your belt. BUT! If you're concealing J frames, pocket/micro pistols, or even just compact pistols in any caliber the art of concealment is lost with any electronic device you can place on it except, perhaps, a laser under the barrel. (Not for me but those are concealable.) The technology is wonderful and has its place but not in the world of concealed carry for most folks. As always, YMMV.

Not to be a jerk about it but I practice what I preach

At what I understand as accepted confrontational/defense ranges, I do not think an RDO would be helpful, These ranges are from 3 feet to about 21 feet. No time to truly acquire the sights completely. Folks are talking about 3.0 seconds for the confrontation. I think that is way to long for someone who practices on a regular basis.