Is a "Letter of Authenticity" really a Letter of Authenticity ?

[model3sw]

Now, that's funny. ^^^^^^

It "is" funny but can be well within reason. A letter you see could be a forgery. How many times has one of us purchased an old S&W with a poor copy of a S&W letter and / or a S&W letter (or copy) having the name of the person it was sent to, surgically removed with a razor blade ?

 

[reddog81]

You do know that the factory doesn't send out the "factory" letters, right?

What's your point? The Smith and Wesson website refers you to the SWHF for a "Letter of Authenticity"....

 

[kwill1911]

I understand Sal's concern. It is pretty common in the Colt world and increasingly common in the S&W world to see unscrupulous sellers using the terminology to mean the letter authenticates the gun for sale. It does not, as most of us understand. It merely authenticates the serial number. A recent auction had an early Colt Government Model for sale and hyped the two digit gun because it had a "letter of authenticity" showing it shipped to a famous shooter of the day. The gun was completely bogus but there was a debate on another forum about the letter "authenticating" the gun.

 

[gwpercle]

It's not a "Letter of Authenticity" it's a Factory Letter , based on the serial number , stating when the firearm shipped and the pertinent details of that firearm as at that time .
Nothing is "Authenticated" in the letter , it just states what shipped on what date.
Gary

 

[kwill1911]

The factory is not involved these days. It comes from the S&W Historical Foundation. Reading is fundamental.

 

[reddog81]

It's not a "Letter of Authenticity" it's a Factory Letter , based on the serial number , stating when the firearm shipped and the pertinent details of that firearm as at that time .
Nothing is "Authenticated" in the letter , it just states what shipped on what date.
Gary

That's the whole point of the thread. S&W and SWHF should call it what it is. Here's the quote from the SWHF website "The SWHF has partnered with Smith & Wesson to issue letters of authenticity on S&W firearms. Click on the link provided to access a PDF file of the Letter of Authenticity Request Form. Print the form, complete the information requested, and mail the form with your payment to the address indicated. You will receive your letter via return mail."

 

[Muss Muggins]

What's your point? The Smith and Wesson website refers you to the SWHF for a "Letter of Authenticity"....

That was my point . . .

 

[Club Gun Fan]

It's actually a Shipping Date Letter which (as we all know) can have very little to do with the actual date of manufacture or birthdate of the gun. I have a Smith that shipped nearly 30 years after it was manufactured. Guns that laid around for a decade or more before shipping are quite common. . .especially in the 1930's.

Doc
It's impossible to tell the date of manufacture. A frame doesn't get a serial number until it's nearly completed. It would be different if it was given a number as soon as it came out of the forge. I'd like to hear about your Smith that shipped 30 years after it was manufactured and tell me how you know when it was manufactured.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Exactly.

Do we have and lawyers in the house ? (this should be interesting).

This all started because of a VERY suspicious M13 Aircrewman presented to me within the past few months accompanied by a S&W letter, just like most of all of the many I have, only this one had in same type style (as subject line) "Letter of Authenticity" or in the lower note section after signatures where the author would code the letter as to who typed it an code for subject, etc.

Parchment was correct, signature (I "think" it was signed by Don) correct, raised perforated stamp over / near signature. I thought, perhaps, this was a new style letter ... never before recalling those words on any of Roy's letters.

None of my own letters from Roy are "titled" in such a manner, I found that odd but ... ok, but it could be.

It could also be that the letter was "Doctored" to add the words, "Letter of Authenticity" or it could have been printed by accident.

Then this AM pulling a new request form from the S&WHF website I see it listed as "letter of authenticity", I just HAD to ask.

Not a rant, but a matter of incorrect "terminology" that too often finds its way in to the bill of goods an unsavory seller might include in a fevered sales pitch, in the (all too familiar) style of a Coney Island carnival barker.

We've all read and heard some incredible sale pitches but someone adding anything to a S&W letter, including the words "Letter of Authenticity" when it was not there before, would be a new low. Not a surprising low, but a new one, anyway.

Sal
I think you should be asking Roy Jinks these question. He doesn't monitor this part of the forum. You could always send him a letter and post his reply here after. You do have his address. don't you?

 

[kraynky]

OP: What are ya? A lawyer or sumthin? Just kidding.

While what you say make sense, matching a serial numbered gun to the letter does "Authenticate" that that serial numbered gun came from the S&W factory in certain fashion, where it began it's journey and when. But it does not do much more. History of ownership would require other documents. Post manufacturing modifications would require yet another set of documents (IE Lew Horton).

I guess to me it Authenticates that S&W built the gun and when & where it became a used gun.

 

[model3sw]

OP: What are ya? A lawyer or sumthin? Just kidding.

While what you say make sense, matching a serial numbered gun to the letter does "Authenticate" that that serial numbered gun came from the S&W factory in certain fashion, where it began it's journey and when. But it does not do much more. History of ownership would require other documents. Post manufacturing modifications would require yet another set of documents (IE Lew Horton).

I guess to me it Authenticates that S&W built the gun and when & where it became a used gun.

I'm a traffic crash investigator and a licensed auction house owner. Just trying keep the records straight.

Also, just yesterday, I had been contacted and approved to work over the new version of the Blue Book of Gun Values for American Antique Firearms for the 2019 (2nd Edition).

In the introductory pages for S&W will accurately present how and where to write to obtain a S&W Shipping Confirmation letter (I won't post it as a Letter of Authenticity") and what to expect in that letter.

 

[model3sw]

Read the comments, the real question is were did you get that so called letter of authenticity terminology from because it isn't coming from S&W and Mr. Jinks. That sounds like a made up gun broker term to hype it.

The letter is for personal use. If you ever get a gun that makes it to Christie's they'll use their own experts. And would not care if your letter was sign by Jesus.

That whole business of trying to turn that letter into some kind of authenticity reads like a scam. Unfortunately some give credence to it in making a purchasing decision.

Once again, that letter simply serves for personal use and curiosity.
And really only saying ye or nay if Smith made it.

I agree and I disagree on some points. Yes, Christie and Sotheby's would authenticate an item of value and remain liable for the accuracy ( i think via Insurance Company) for many years to come .

Sadly, the larger gun auction houses (which I will leave nameless but you all know which ones) seem to sell the blue skies primarily with facts that are OK, if they happen to be available as the lesser objective. (or so it seems). Reading some of the descriptions reminds me of reading ads for used cars having high mileage where the build up in the ad is focused to turn your thoughts away from the high mileage (and tide marks on the interior panels ...LOL)

 

[gmborkovic]

Dont buy a story, buy a shooter, and enjoy it.

 

[Skwirl]

I agree and I disagree on some points. Yes, Christie and Sotheby's would authenticate an item of value and remain liable for the accuracy ( i think via Insurance Company) for many years to come .

Sadly, the larger gun auction houses (which I will leave nameless but you all know which ones) seem to sell the blue skies primarily with facts that are OK, if they happen to be available as the lesser objective. (or so it seems). Reading some of the descriptions reminds me of reading ads for used cars having high mileage where the build up in the ad is focused to turn your thoughts away from the high mileage (and tide marks on the interior panels ...LOL)

I'll agree on this also.
I just read an add for a gun, claiming to be 1 of 1500 made.
The price is a premium also, and rising.
Multiple problems though.
1st, the gun is 1 of 155 made.
No research on their part.
2nd, wrong product code.
Again no research by the seller. I'm new and it only took me 10 minutes to find the correct info.

But, yet there running the price up based on an outright lie.


To be fair, there is no letter included with that gun. But they are using the premise of it.

When the sucker that buys it does get it lettered from S&W or the distributor that sold it confirming without a doubt, it's not what he thought it was.

Where does the backlash go? S&W? The distributor?

Again, buyer be ware.

 

[model3sw]

BTW ... here are some lines excerpted from sold Gunbroker auctions.

these are just a few I pulled up:

1. "Factory Roy Jinks Letter Guaranteeing Authenticity"
2. "ROY JINKS LETTER OF AUTHENTICITY INCLUDED IN SALE"

Just something to think about.

 

[model3sw]

Sal
I think you should be asking Roy Jinks these question. He doesn't monitor this part of the forum. You could always send him a letter and post his reply here after. You do have his address. don't you?

Don,

Is Roy the one to make the decision or would it go up for a vote to the Board of Directors of the S&WHF who now controls these letters ?

When did the application for the S&W letter change to "Request for Letter of Authenticity" ? Somehow I don't remember seeing that a year or two back, perhaps I'm mistaken about the exact time frame but it seems that the S&WHF now calls the Application a "Request form for Letter of Authenticity" a seller would not be doing anything unreasonable by stating he has a "letter of Authenticity" if that is what S&WHF calls it.

It just seems the words Authenticity is getting wrongly popularized and thrown around in advertising too liberally and flagrantly ... when it is NOT truly, a Letter of Authenticity at all.

The S&W Letter is a true asset to us all. Calling it something it is not will do nothing but cheapen the image of it as time goes on unless redefined, accurately, for valuable asset it truly is.

 

[LittleCooner]

I agree with you Sal, the SWHF needs to reconsider what they are calling these historical documents. After reading this thread for the past few days, I agree, the word Authenticity should not be used in the letter. I am not a collector, but I endorse the re evaluation of labeling these letter "authenticity"

 

[Muss Muggins]

I gotta tell y'all, I have no idea what to do with a group of people that will complain, loudly and adamantly, about what to call a letter researched from historical production and shipping records, by a group headed by the factory historian, which details the exact configuration of the firearm you own when it was shipped, the date is was shipped from the factory, and the destination, and potentially the number of like firearms in the same shipment, along with a generalized history of that particular series of like firearms, as well as anything else interesting that the historian might come across during the research . . .

Dumbest argument I've read since magazine/clip . . .

 

[model3sw]

I gotta tell y'all, I have no idea what to do with a group of people that will complain, loudly and adamantly, about what to call a letter researched from historical production and shipping records, by a group headed by the factory historian, which details the exact configuration of the firearm you own when it was shipped, the date is was shipped from the factory, and the destination, and potentially the number of like firearms in the same shipment, along with a generalized history of that particular series of like firearms, as well as anything else interesting that the historian might come across during the research . . .

Dumbest argument I've read since magazine/clip . . .

You missed it, all together. The content of the letter is undisputed but it does not authenticate the item, just states what the old records show.

Doesn't it do something to you when someone misrepresents something for sale ? Usually, you, I and another guy won't get caught but some poor son of a sailor, will.

If you were about to plop down some serious cash for a USAF M13, based solely on (and accepting) a Letter of Authenticity to truly be what is is named, you'd think differently.

Wisdom comes from experience and education. Fear is not an option.

 

[b_san]

I'd just like to note that I've just wasted 10 minutes of my life, that I'll never get back, reading through what is the dumbest and most pointless thread I've read on this site. I'm guessing the OP's cable was out tonight so he wasn't able to do his normal arguing with the guy on the TV and had to come up with something else on short notice.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

I think Sal had his lunch sat on in grammar school.

 

[model3sw]

I think Sal had his lunch sat on in grammar school.

Don ... see your private email ... Sal

 

[model3sw]

I'd just like to note that I've just wasted 10 minutes of my life, that I'll never get back, reading through what is the dumbest and most pointless thread I've read on this site. I'm guessing the OP's cable was out tonight so he wasn't able to do his normal arguing with the guy on the TV and had to come up with something else on short notice.

Joshua,

While there is little reason (other than curiosity) to request S&W letters on newer 629s, Performance centers and basically, not much of anything newer than 1970, one day you'll find a really sweet, older, S&W that captures your soul with a steep price tag. Perhaps then you'll consider this subject differently.

Glad you enjoyed it and actually considered the content. Sal

 

[Muss Muggins]

I didn't miss it at all. "Letter of Authenticity" is not a term of art, and people are attempting to treat it as such . . .

Is a Letter of Authenticity is really a "Letter of Authenticity" as the title implies ?

To me, this implies the gun described in the letter has been verified as "authentic" when it has NOT been examined nor verified.

You're trying to force your definition of the phrase on everyone else, including sellers who don't know you from anything. That's why the law uses the phrase "term of art," so as to standardize these things. You know what the letter is, and if a seller advertises a Smith and Wesson letter, you know what it will and won't show. Arguing with a seller that his/her S&W letter is or isn't a "Letter of Authenticity" by your standard is akin to beating your head against the wall. Seller's gonna say it is, you're gonna say it ain't. And there's the end of it . . .

You missed it, all together. The content of the letter is undisputed but it does not authenticate the item, just states what the old records show.

Doesn't it do something to you when someone misrepresents something for sale ? Usually, you, I and another guy won't get caught but some poor son of a sailor, will.

If you were about to plop down some serious cash for a USAF M13, based solely on (and accepting) a Letter of Authenticity to truly be what is is named, you'd think differently.

Wisdom comes from experience and education. Fear is not an option.

 

[model3sw]

LOL, I hear that, chiselers everywhere you look, it's been that way since mankind crawled out of the slime.

It occurred to me thinking all about this that S&W has done this on purpose to keep the interest in S&W, create some grand illusion that everyone must own a S&W revolver and it's also cheap advertisement.

The Wall-Street hacks who own them know very well what that 'play on words' does and is.

Be careful Sal calling them out on it, you might get banned here.

I am not, in any way, calling out anyone from S&W or the Club or the Foundation. Just putting up a point of conjecture that I take very seriously.

I attest to deceptive or false advertising of selling blue skies to an unsuspecting potential buyer (and novice collector) in awe of owning a nice older S&W. These are the guys that get burnt more often and worse but even the best of us fall for a line of bull or hyper-advertising once in awhile.

The S&W Letter to verify the ship date and configuration it originally shipped is a very valuable asset to both the owner and the serious collectors. This does not mean (by virtue of the letter alone) the gun described is "the" gun shipped from the factory nor what condition it is currently in or what value it may have.

My first experience of buying a "fake" was from a local collector seller of my own club here in Florida. I was young, and had pockets full of money (that's a dangerous combination). it was for $500 for a genuine Colt manufacture 2nd series BlackPowder (late 1970s mfg) revolver that was an Italian copy.

I considered keeping it as yet, another, lesson learned but then after thinking it out, if I allowed him to get over with this, he'd think I was a complete yokel for believing what he ( a tenured Local Club member ) presented as genuine. I confronted him and he started to get defensive but then started to stutter for lack of BS. He agreed (after some banter) to take it back for a full refund.

The next was a pre-war .22 Outdoorsman presented to me as a Masterpiece from yet another tenured local club member, after showing me books and descriptions and attesting it was a Masterpiece. The box was in fact a pre-war Masterpiece box that he coupled to a pre-war Outdoorman. He also, got very defensive and evasive. Good thing I asked for a receipt with description of the S&W with serial number. He, too, refunded the complete purchase price after some hard words were exchanged. He even had other respected Club members plead with me not to expose him for the fraud that he was, as he was dying of cancer. No excuse ! I remained silent. He passed 3 months later. No loss of sentiment there.

 

[Vbk76]

I don't know why people are getting worked up over this. Don't want to get a letter or think they are worthless? Then don't. No one is saying you have to buy one. Buyer beware applies to everything whether there is a letter or not. You buy the gun not the story. Anything extra is gravy.
I just got 3 letters. They don't say a lot. But I know where it started it's work and that makes it ok with me. It's because I look at it as history and part of the story. Some have a short story. Some have a novel And some never care to read the book. Life's all about choices

Boils down to buyer beware and don't worry what other people do

 

[oysterer]

You guys should be very grateful to have this type of service provided by Roy and enjoy it for what it is...

 

[jhnttrpp]

I gotta tell y'all, I have no idea what to do with a group of people that will complain, loudly and adamantly, about what to call a letter researched from historical production and shipping records, by a group headed by the factory historian, which details the exact configuration of the firearm you own when it was shipped, the date is was shipped from the factory, and the destination, and potentially the number of like firearms in the same shipment, along with a generalized history of that particular series of like firearms, as well as anything else interesting that the historian might come across during the research . . .

Dumbest argument I've read since magazine/clip . . .

Hey Muss, I guess we can hire someone to ship our gun to and Roy can ship the letter to and this eminently qualified person can match the two up and say yep this is the one. This shouldn't cost more than a few hundred dollars. Then they can stamp a number on the gun identifying the gun and then writing it on the Letter of Authenticity and ship it all back to us. So we pay Roy, we pay the shipper, we pay the expert, we pay the FFL both ways, problem solved.

Uh wait a minute. The identification number is already on the gun, and the letter. Problem solved. Or was there a problem at all. Lord have mercy, we are trying way too hard.

 

[model3sw]

I didn't miss it at all. "Letter of Authenticity" is not a term of art, and people are attempting to treat it as such . . .

You're trying to force your definition of the phrase on everyone else, including sellers who don't know you from anything. That's why the law uses the phrase "term of art," so as to standardize these things. You know what the letter is, and if a seller advertises a Smith and Wesson letter, you know what it will and won't show. Arguing with a seller that his/her S&W letter is or isn't a "Letter of Authenticity" by your standard is akin to beating your head against the wall. Seller's gonna say it is, you're gonna say it ain't. And there's the end of it . . .

Again, you missed it.

I'm not force feeding anyone. It is up to the reader to research and consider. It's an open forum and not everyone has to agree with anyone else as long as we continue in a civilized manner.

A letter of Authenticity is not limited to art work, proper (e.g. paintings, prints, sculptures, etc.) even though I think some of the old ones are better than artwork just for the impeccable craftsmanship, fit and function.

Although it is widely used for artwork that is not the sole purpose nor creation of such documentation.

It is not for me to argue with a seller or whomever is selling whatever it is. I'm old enough and learned enough to spot a good one and a "not so good" one.

S&W Historical letters have been the gold standard to affirm original shipping configuration, date, and who it was shipped to ... that's it !

As these progressed a short story was prefaced before the actual shipping data was revealed. Excellent ! Everyone is happy.

 

[gmborkovic]

Is the letter kind of like a build sheet or window sticker from classic cars?
Just a thought.