Is firing really fast double-action harmful for the revolver?

[Gorenut]

Just thought I'd ask because I've never heard too much about it and it only really came under my radar when I noticed some wear in the cylinder notches on my 627 from rapid DA shooting. We all know Mr Miculek fires his revolvers like machine guns, but he also probably gets a new gun much frequently than the average Joe. Also, noticed someone in another thread mention it being harmful in "excessive" amounts.

 

[Doug.38PR]

I used to wonder this too. What it comes down to is this: there is a difference between rapid shooting squeezing the trigger and rapidly and abusively jerking the trigger by yanking it back as hard as you can and as fast as you can. The former will cause normal wear in time that can be tuned up after a long while, the latter will cause tear and damage some of which cannot be adjusted or are very expensive to make up for(I.E. cylinder notches getting worn out). The former is also much more accurate and the latter is not. Jerry Miculak is not jerking the trigger and abusing his gun. He is hitting what he aims at. He has simply learned that with practice comes speed rather than starting off filling the cylinder and rapidly jerking the trigger as fast as you can.

Practice slowly pulling/squeezing the trigger and shoot accurately. The more you do this, the faster AND more accurate you'll be.

 

[woreout]

I don't know how to define "excessive", but there has to be some effect.

Consider the mass of the cylinder that is going fast and has to stop suddenly. Inertia makes it want to keep going.

Lord only knows how much Jerry shoots but the average guy doesn't have much to worry about.

 

[Gorenut]

Yea, I had no clear definition of "excessive" either. Personally, I don't know anything I've done that would be considered that since its not like I've just tried to unleash a volley for the sake of just being fast (ok.. except maybe half a dozen times or more), but for the most part I'm always going for accuracy over speed. I'm really only asking because I've seen another mention of it and was curious what is considered "excessive" and it sounds like Doug gave a pretty good answer so far.

 

[loc n load]

DA shooting

Shooting a DA Smith in rapid DA is not going to harm the gun, although being a precision mechanical device it will eventually need maintainence and parts replacement after thousands and thousands of cycles....I have been shooting / instructing and repairing / maintaining smith's for approaching 40 years ( duty guns and competition).
I will give you one example: M-65 4" bl K frame 357 mag (personal gun)...bought mid 70's.....shot 32,000 documented rounds thru this revolver.../ approx. 50% 357mag loads with 160 SWC's and the other 50% 158 gr RN 38 spl's......all DA....used to do rapid DA demo's with 6 rds under 2 seconds.
Plus I have dry fired the gun thousands and thousands of times.
Over the course of the 20 years that I fired this gun 32,000times, I had to replace three hammer noses, several hammer nose springs, two hands, two mainsprings, several locking lug springs.....had to retime the gun several times, and peen & dress the locking notches on the cylinder several times.
I know very few shooter's that put that many rounds thru one revolver, unless they are a competitor / serious shooter. But if they do, the Smith is up to it....it requires maintainence, occasional parts replacement and tuning like all precision machines....so don't be afraid of dry firing or live firing your Smith....they are pretty much immortal.

 

[scooter123]

As noted it will cause wear to the stop notches. I know someone who shoots revolvers heavily in bowling pin matches and IDPA and his cyclinders to get beat up a bit. Usually he doesn't need to do anything about it until the 10-15 thousand round mark so IMO I think this can be considered normal wear and tear. Worst case you have to have a new cylinder and stop fitted to your gun with a cost IIRC of about 300 dollars.

If you take a look at the cost of 10 thousand rounds of 45 ACP it becomes rather obvious that this maintenance expense is rather paltry compared to the cost of the ammo consumed. BTW, due to concerns about lead I reload using either plated or TMJ bullets. For me currently the total cost to load up one round of 45 ACP is 15 cents for the bullet, 2.5 cents for the powder, and 4 cents for the primer. I don't include the cost of the casing because with 45 ACP the casings last darned near forever. Total it up and for a reloader 45 ACP currently costs 21.5 cents per round.

 

[Dave T]

...I had to replace three hammer noses, several hammer nose springs, two hands, two mainsprings, several locking lug springs.....had to retime the gun several times, and peen & dress the locking notches on the cylinder several times.

No offense to Mr. lock n load but that hardly sounds "immortal".

When I was accepted by the Sheriff's Department and was scheduled to start the academy I started shopping for a revolver. This was 1973 and semi autos were not allowed. I settled on a Model 28-2 and went through the adacemy with it shooting one of the highest qualifying scores in my class.

It didn't take long on the street before I realized our traditional training, based on the old PPC course was woefully inadequate. I started training myself to shoot faster and more accurately, with the magnum level ammunition I was carrying instead of 38 wadcutters.

I shot a minimum of 150 rounds an outing and tried to get out 2-3 times a week. I also dry fired every day, again stressing rapid fire DA under control (watching the front sight like my life depended on it).

Within a year that M-28 was showing the strain of that level of use. Timing was getting bad, it started spitting lead occasionally and it had developed noticeable end-shake. The trigger was pretty smooth but the final straw was when it started locking up. A draw from the holster and a rapid first shot...that ended with the trigger frozen about half way back. Since I had just recently qualified with a Government Model 45 ACP (the first time the department authorized carrying semi autos) I retired the old (in condition, not years) M-28.

Dave

 

[dfariswheel]

Drive a car on the interstate at 70 mph and drive a car at 130 mph. Which is more wearing?
Driving a car at 70 mph on a off-road pot-holed trail is damaging.

Many of the exhibition single action shooters had three guns. One in use, one in reserve, and one in the shop being rebuilt.

What is wearing, and can be very damaging is shooting the gun double action by jerking the trigger as hard and fast as you can, or "force cocking" the gun in single action by yanking the hammer back hard.
This batters the cylinder locking bolt, and really batters the cylinder locking notches.

I once was on a firing line while some guy on the other end was shooting a brand new S&W 686 he'd bought less then a week before.
He was cocking the hammer so hard in single action that I could hear a "CLACK" all the way on the other end of the line.
Later, he was showing his new gun around and the cylinder locking notches were already so badly battered the cylinder was beyond repair.
Someone asked about that, and he bragged that "They're made to use that way".

The speed shooters and people who actually learn how to shoot double action learn to "roll the trigger". This is a technique that allows fast DA shooting but is much easier on the gun.
Basically, this means to learn how to pivot or roll the trigger quickly instead of jerking it back.

 

[loc n load]

Immortal smith's

To clarify the last sentence of my post......where I use the term "immortal" I did not mean indestructable......as I prefaced that last sentence, revolvers are intricate mechanical devices that have hand fitted, close tolerance parts, that are rather small & have metal to metal contact.....and when subjected to the dynamics that are encountered in rapid fire DA shooting, there is going to be wear and tear & parts failure as on all mechanical devices that accumulate use over a period of years.
My point was and is...that when properly maintained and repaired when the need arises, most quality firearms are "pretty much immortal" as they can be rebuilt from the frame up if needed...will they need repair and attention when fired a lot...yes.....I have a Browning Hi pwr that has a documented 100k rounds thru it and a laundry list of parts that went into the gun over a period of a couple of decades...ditto for a half dozen Colt 1911A1's that I have ran thousands of rounds thru over a period of three decades.....same with shotguns, rifles and sub machine guns.
With proper care, maintainence and skilled repairs when needed, I maintain my view.....There are not too many mechanical devices that I have owned for 30 plus years ( like my M-65) that I can still use and operate....and mechanically it is as sound as when I started shooting it....The new breed of handguns is even more impressive...as I have seen G-17's with 2 to 3 hundred thousand rounds thru them and required very minor repairs. Also as mentioned in post #8, if they are abused, that will only accelerate the frequency of mechanical repairs & parts needed.

 

[Bat Guano]

Most of my fast DA shooting back in the day was done with two Ruger Sixes--a Security Six and a Service Six. I didn't track the rounds fired but suffice it to say that I hauled a lot of cases of ammo to the range, and I fired a lot of it, both .38 W/C and .357/125s. In both cases the forcing cones eventually eroded to where I got a lot of spitting. Both guns went in for barrel replacements, tune-ups, and refinish. I still have both of them.

They also developed a little end shake and cylinder slop, (fixed) but the cylinder stops are still good today.

I think Ed McGivern commented that he sent his S&Ws in periodically. He has a picture of a K-22 and two targets; the first showing the groups the gun shot after a couple hundred thousand rounds, and one after a new cylinder stop was fitted. Both groups were pretty darned good...

I would be inclined to think that a M28 cylinder would be hitting the stop a lot harder than, say a K frame cylinder at speed, due to the weight and inertia.

A good DA revolver takes a lot of wearing out with any care at all. I like 'em.

 

[Doug.38PR]

The speed shooters and people who actually learn how to shoot double action learn to "roll the trigger". This is a technique that allows fast DA shooting but is much easier on the gun.
Basically, this means to learn how to pivot or roll the trigger quickly instead of jerking it back.

that is probably the best way I've heard it described. that's exactly how it feels. Not a quick and hard thrust, but a natural but fast roll.

To me the gun feels more like a part of you whole hand when you shoot this way rather than something in your hand that your index finger is yanking on.

 

[RWJ]

I would be inclined to think that a M28 cylinder would be hitting the stop a lot harder than, say a K frame cylinder at speed, due to the weight and inertia.

This is one of the main reasons that few N-frame .38s were made into PPC guns. My Lou Ciamillo/Md Gunworks Model 10 PPC gun went for over 90,000+ before notch peening required attention.

 

[TNDave]

J and K frames can take a lot of fast shooting. N frames don't do as well.

 

[loc n load]

DA shooting

In regards to proper DA shooting, post #2 & 8 are spot on, a smooth, consistent "roll" on the trigger is desirable for accurate and then rapid DA shooting.....Over the course of my career I instructed thousands of "boots" to shoot DA revolvers & worked with a lot of top tier competitors.....one of my "teaching aids" was to set a penny on top of the front sight blade ( if it was flat - like my 65 or M-10 HB) , hold the revolver out in a shooting position and then while maintaining my "sight picture" I would cycle the trigger without upsetting the penny.....if you were smooth and consistent you could do this over and over.....for you PPC shooters and seasoned DA shooters here, I am sure you can do the same thing. This demonstration made my point to students about the proper technique for DA shooting.
And as the shooter developed the skill sets necessary for accurate DA shooting, they could speed up w/o sacrificing proper technique.

 

[Dave T]

l agree that the rolling trigger stroke helps in preventing damage to the DA revolver action but in the case of my M-28 described earlier the mass of the N-frame cylinder (bored to 36 caliber rather than 43 or 45) had a lot to do with the early damage. Along with that was the fact that once I was out of the academy I never fired another 38 Special round through the gun.

Dave

 

[WardenRoss]

hey boys and girls...my 2 cents...

i'm an ole LEO who started out when revolvers were the norm. when i first began my career i purchased a used model 19 6" k frame.

i was on my traveling pistol team. i practice daily, after work and on weekends. i had full use of ammo and a great range.

that 19 saw so many rounds i could never have kept a count. fast draw, break front holsters, rapid shots, on and on year after year, rain or shine. our combat course included one stage with 12 shots in 15 seconds. i also shot steel challenges just for fun.

i was single, young and dumb. that revolver was abused, dropped, improperly cleaned, slammed, rode hard and put away wet.

i still have her. she STILL performs as well as she did when i first bought her. the original owner also treated her just as poorly as i did.

i wouldn't worry too much about rapid shooting your smith revolver. they are combat proven.

 

[Gorenut]

Glad I asked. While I didn't get the notion that rapid double-firing was really terrible for the gun.. I did at least get the emphasis of "rolling" with the trigger in this thread. While I think I naturally did that already, its good that its pointed out in words here to keep it in my head. Even more helpful when I let my friends go at it with my revolvers. I know of at least 2 of em that have "slapped" the triggers for rapid firing. Didn't think much of it but I remember it cause of how badly they were jerking it. Would be a good pointer to bring up to em next time.

I noticed some mention of N Frames in 38 being more prone to issues when rapid firing.. I'm guessing a 627 PC 8 shooter might be the exception to this since its got 2 additional holes which in turn lighten the overall cylinder.

Thanks for all the informative posts.

 

[WardenRoss]

Shooting a DA Smith in rapid DA is not going to harm the gun, although being a precision mechanical device it will eventually need maintainence and parts replacement after thousands and thousands of cycles....I have been shooting / instructing and repairing / maintaining smith's for approaching 40 years ( duty guns and competition).
I will give you one example: M-65 4" bl K frame 357 mag (personal gun)...bought mid 70's.....shot 32,000 documented rounds thru this revolver.../ approx. 50% 357mag loads with 160 SWC's and the other 50% 158 gr RN 38 spl's......all DA....used to do rapid DA demo's with 6 rds under 2 seconds.
Plus I have dry fired the gun thousands and thousands of times.
Over the course of the 20 years that I fired this gun 32,000times, I had to replace three hammer noses, several hammer nose springs, two hands, two mainsprings, several locking lug springs.....had to retime the gun several times, and peen & dress the locking notches on the cylinder several times.
I know very few shooter's that put that many rounds thru one revolver, unless they are a competitor / serious shooter. But if they do, the Smith is up to it....it requires maintainence, occasional parts replacement and tuning like all precision machines....so don't be afraid of dry firing or live firing your Smith....they are pretty much immortal.

hey loc n load,

thanks bro for your testimony about the documented quality of a k frame!

 

[Nframecollector]

I don't think Ed McGivern ever damaged one. He did most of his speed shooting with S&W's. Firing hundreds of thousands of rounds in training, practice and exhibition.

 

[brokenprism]

I had to replace three hammer noses, several hammer nose springs...

I guess now would be the time to buy spare parts for 80s guns, huh... hammer noses will be things of the past soon.