Is it a fake S&W?(HE 1905)

[FerFAL]

Someone said it might be, how could I tell for sure?
According to the serial number I was told it was made around 1903 if I remember correctly. Serial number is 2659XX
Here are some pics.

Just realized, it does not say "Made in USA" , what does that mean?
Thanks for any tip you may have.
FerFAL

 

[FerFAL]

Someone said it might be, how could I tell for sure?
According to the serial number I was told it was made around 1903 if I remember correctly. Serial number is 2659XX
Here are some pics.

Just realized, it does not say "Made in USA" , what does that mean?
Thanks for any tip you may have.
FerFAL

 

[opoefc]

The serial number range of 265,000 is about 1915, not 1903. The grips are not S&W grips, they must be an after market make. Tell us EXACTLY what ALL markings and numbers are and where they are on the gun , including what stampa & marks are UNDER the grips on the grip frame. The gun looks real from the pics but some Spanish copies are hard to tell from S&Ws. Ed.

 

[FerFAL]

Here are more pics, thanks for the help Ed.

Shouldn't it say "Made in USA"?

FerFAL

 

[FerFAL]

Originally posted by opoefc:
The serial number range of 265,000 is about 1915, not 1903. The grips are not S&W grips, they must be an after market make. Tell us EXACTLY what ALL markings and numbers are and where they are on the gun , including what stampa & marks are UNDER the grips on the grip frame. The gun looks real from the pics but some Spanish copies are hard to tell from S&Ws. Ed.

7857 behind the cylinder crane, stamped on the frame.
85(maybe 6)234 right under the barrel, on the flat part right over the rod.
The serial number is clearly stamped at the bottom of the square grip on the frame. The inside of the grips have this same serial number scratched into it.
FerFAL

 

[FerFAL]

I was wrong about the scratched number on the inside of the grips( confused it with one of the colts) no markings of any kind here, though the grips fit perfectly.
Sorry, pics aren't good, there's a small inverted "T" on this one, next to the stub.

And what appears to be an F or maybe P on this other side.

What does that mean?
I must say, fake or not fit and finish are outstanding, tightest gun I own. Wont cry if it's a fake though, paid about 150 bucks for it.

So , what's the experts verdict?
PD: Checked again and there "could" be a small "R" on the left side grip.
FerFAL

 

[walnutred]

If you decide it's a fake and not worthy of your collection please e-mail me. My accumulation is not all that high class and I think it would fit right in

 

[Onomea]

Ferfal, I'm no expert, but I think the hammer profile looks a little off in the 3rd pic above. The profile, I mean. To my eye it looks somewhere inbetween a pre and postwar hammer. Then again, maybe it's just that pic...

As you note, for $150 you can't go wrong. It sure looks very high quality, and, in a way, I think if it turns out to be a knockoff, that would be more interesting than an original... If it's a fake, I'd really like to know who made it because it looks like very fine work indeed.

I'm sure one or more of our guys will nail it soon.

 

[arfmel]

Seems to me that if someone would go to that amount of effort to fake a gun they would have gone all the way and put "Made in USA" on it, and faked a rarer gun than a Military and Police .38. I don't think it is fake.

 

[Culina]

If its fake, its the nicest one I have seen. Usually they are pretty obvious, this one appears to be S&W but some of the marks leave some questions.

 

[kritter]

probally not a fake.....
and good timeing on your part too. i'm looking into a 1905 HE that i picked up myself and heres what i found out.
that the factory had dispensed with much of the roll-stamping and logos during and for a while after WW1.
( the goverment had taken over the factory for war production figuring they could do a better (faster) productions that the wessons.and this was probally done to help speed up production? one less step?)
anyhow this was of intrest to me because the HE i picked up has no/none of any kind of markings on the frame.. no logo no made in usa nothing... found out this was normal for this time frame.

 

[FerFAL]

Well, that is interesting. I thought it was odd that it didn't say "Made in USA" but if your's has no markings I suppose that they could have skipped it for some reason, who knows? Darn. Learning about our guns is interesting.

I honestly don't think it's fake, but if it was it wouldn't matter much.
The markings are very clear, and most of all the fit and finish. No one made this gun in a hurry.
The crane to frame fit is to die for. You can trace your fingernail through the area and not tell there's a crack there. You don't even feel it with your finger tips, something you can do with the 629-1 which already is excellent quality. The cylinder locking, the timing, everything is in prefect shape.
How the heck did this gun stay in such a shape for almost 100 years?
Anyway, anyone knows what the inverted "T" and "F" ( or P maybe) means?
How about you guys with similar 1905 HE, are your barrel and frames numbered, other than the serial number in the butt?
Thanks a lot.

FerFAL

 

[cgt4570]

The 'Made in USA'stamp didn't start until sometime in the '20s if I recall. I don't have the book in front of me with the engineering changes, but none of my early ones wear wear that stamp.
As stated, the grips are not S&W and do look like they're from a Spanish copy. (you said they fit great, but from the pics it looks like they are too slim around the top sides and there's metal showing) I'm just about positive that the gun itself is real.
It's definitely not from 1903 though as those were 4-screw frames (no screw in front of the trigger guard) with non-tapered barrels.

The serial number on the barrel flat you listed should match the frame serial number. By the caliber markings on the barrel, and the serial you posted, the barrel has been replaced with an earlier barrel. (I'd guess about 1907-9) To further indicate this, it looks like the barrel pin has been removed and replaced. Looks like tool marks around it and it doesn't match the blue around it.

The frame serial number should also appear on the face of the cylinder, as looking at it to load it, and also on the back side of the ejector star. (seen from behind when it's pushed out. very small and hard to see sometimes).

My opinion is that it's a real Smith, and probably a very decent shooter with a few parts replaced as needed. Somewhere in the thread I think you mentioned $150? That's a great price for a very decent looking shootable pre-WW1 Smith. I love those early actions.

 

[FerFAL]

The barrel number should always match the frame number then, this is always the case and there's no exception?
Other than that how can you tell it's an earlier barrel?
I'm asking because there's another 1905 HE in this same gunshop and I'll be giving it a good look.

Here's a pic. This one says "Made in USA" !

,are those grips original? Asking price is 180 USD.

Edited to add: Just checked and realized I missed some numbers.
FerFAL

 

[cgt4570]

That is correct. If the barrel is the original, or even if it was replaced by the factory, it will be stamped with the frame serial number on the barrel flat in front of the locking lug.

The grips in the above picture look like correct 1st style K square butt grips. They were used from 1905 until about 1910 or so. They have the concave shape at the top.
The grips in the first pics you show at the top of the page look like factory grips at first glance for roughly the period between the wars, but the shape of the diamond around the screw escutcheons is too elongated.

Sounds like it's time for you to invest in Jim Supica's Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson.

Chris

Also, per Neal/Jinks book: "May 1922: Order to stamp all revolvers on frame "Made in U.S.A" by order of H. Wesson.

 

[FerFAL]

On the cylinder: 2659XX ( the same serial number that shows on the butt)
On the crane: 85234, same number as the one stamped on the frame.

Thanks a lot Chris.
Do you know why the cylinder holds the serial number rather than the frame and crane number?
Edited to add: Is this gun valuable in US, or did the new barrel destroy any possible collector value?
I'm planning to move to US next year and the tax alone costs 100 UsD, almost as much as I paid for the gun. Is it worth taking?

FerFAL

 

[cgt4570]

I'm really not sure why they used assembly numbers as well as serial numbers on various parts. I'm not sure anyone does. Some parts were fitted, then separted to go to blueing or plating operations, then re-united for final assembly. I would guess that the assembly number parts were fitted before the serial number was established?
BTW, one more place you'll find the serial number is on the inside of the sideplate. I forgot to mention that.
As for value, I'd expect to pay probably between $200-$300 for one like the last one pictured as a good shooter. It's hard to judge condition from a picture. Unless they are in very good condition, or exhibit some special order feature, there isn't a lot of value because they made millions of them. Most of their value lies in shootability from those of us who appreciate them.
Chris

 

[opoefc]

Your gun is a S&W, not a fake, but the problems are : () Grips are after market replacement. (2) barrel is a replacement, as it has the 3 line patent stamping on top, and dual cartridge stamping on the side, which are for M&P Model 1902, 2nd model, however the serial # of 85234 is a serial # range for a Model 1905, 1st change. That only means the barrel was probably in the parts inventory from 1902 to about 1907 when gun # 85234 was built. Some were in the past Gun # 85234 was probably scrapped and the barrel was used as a replacement for your gun. The hammer is correct. It's a shooter gun, not a gun that would interest a collector. If you are thinking of bringing firearms, especially handguns, when you move to the USA, be sure to check with US Custom Office before doing so. Special import permits may apply. There are no taxes required to import US made goods back to the USA, that I know of, but I'm no expert on taxes. Ed.

 

[FerFAL]

Well, it does shoot very well. One of the most accurate guns I own.
They did a beautiful job replacing the barrel, it mates perfectly with the rest and they didn't dent the hole thing. I wish you guys could handle the gun and see for yourselves how nice it is.
Thanks everyone for all the help.

FerFAL