Is it really a "Freedom" to bear arms?

[dougb1946]

I'm not necessarily trying to change anything in the USA, really. However, I take a LOT of issue with the argument: "It's our right," or, "The Constitution states X..

That is not an argument. It is a fact. It is a part of our constitution. As the primary purpose of our constitution is to limit the power of the fed govt, we take the idea of changing it, and removing rights, very seriously. Rights, once lost, are hard to regain, and the constitution recognizes that the organism we call a government wants to grow and become more powerful. Our founders saw that there were two sources of threats to our freedom-internal and external. Our military does a pretty good job with the external. Making it hard to alter the constitution limits the success of the internal threats. They noticed that monarchies and strongly repressive govts tended to disarm the population. We have an armed population. A difference between a subject and a citizen.

Most of us recognize that rights go hand in hand with duty and responsibility, and have had some training in safety and marksmanship. In MN, to buy a weapon, handgun or assault weapon, you need a permit and back ground check. To carry a handgun, you need a class on laws and a proficiency test. Gun safety classes are required for young hunters.

We might seem a little blase' about the misuse of guns, but remember that we have a transportation system that kills over 40,000 per year, and a text message system that is becoming more dangerous every year.

"Jingoism". We do tend to be a proud and brash people, but you realize that people die trying to get here to live our way of life. So, why not be jingoistic about our country and constitution. Why did you chose to live here? It's a package deal.

 

[stantheman86]

I'm sorry, but I have to say this guy has some nerve to talk about "restructuring the Constitution" and "step into the 21st Century".........is this guy for real?

Thankfully we threw Great Britain out of this country and wrote our own set of "rights", so that we wouldn't have some foreign country telling up what we can and can't do.

This thread's probably going to get locked down anyway, the "flames" are gonna get hot in here.......

 

[WilliamG]

Yes I am for real. I find it highly snobbish and incredibly closed-minded to assume that your "Rights" don't hurt anyone else. Did America as a WHOLE collectively decide that guns are a good thing? No, I don't think so, hence the whole gun debate WITHIN America. I'm not bringing up anything that isn't discussed by AMERICANS within this country. The fact is your RIGHT to bear arms DOES hurt other people. Whether those people are gun owners themselves or otherwise. There are a lot of guns out there, and unfortunately many of them are in the wrong hands. Is it the right of parents to marry off their children as child brides in some countries? I mean just because it's done and "accepted" by a large number of people does that make it a "right," and therefore a "good" thing?

Now, I'm not at all suggesting taking away all guns! For some reason people seem to be attacking me on that point. But to suggest that everything is butterflies and rainbows is very narrow minded. Let's not forget, the Constitution was written by man... over 200 years ago. America is quite a different country these days.

stantheman, this is a different discussion, but many people believe that invading Iraq did nothing for our freedoms at all. Americans have much more difficulty sleeping at night than they did. And America (and England, and all countries involved) have bred a new generation of terrorists by invading Afghanistan/Iraq etc. What was the right thing to do then after 9/11/01? I don't know. I don't have the answers. I'm just suggesting we're not as free as we think we are. Personally, I've always felt it was the Land of the Free (as long as you can afford it). My outrageous healthcare bills last month are a testament to that. And you're right, we can't compare the US and the UK. And actually I agree - I do, in many ways, think officers in the UK should be able to carry firearms.

While I appreciate your service to America, you raise the perfect point for me in what you said: You really ARE capable of firing a weapon and being a responsible owner, because you've got experience. What about the rest of the people buying guns? Are they all as experienced/capable as you are? Does anyone disagree that buying a gun shouldn't be as "easy" as it is? Heck, let's take it holistically: If owning a gun is a "right," and it's in the Constitution, why is there so much debate about it these days? Clearly it's not all that simple...., otherwise we'd be giving the mentally ill a firearm or three. Is there anything in the Constitution that says the mentally ill shouldn't have a gun? What about the age restrictions we place on people before they can buy a gun? Were those in the Constitution? (I actually don't know). Without a CCW permit, I can buy a long gun but not a handgun without a wait period. Was that in the Constitution? I want a handgun NOW, TODAY, but my government is telling me to wait? I'm sure that's not constitutional!

I'd really not like this thread to get locked down, so if we can keep it civil, there's some excellent debate taking place here. America isn't perfect (neither is any country), so if you're going to reply to this thread with blanket statements, we're not going to get anywhere.

Let's keep this on track. I have NO problem with people disagreeing with me. No problem at all. But let's be nice, shall we?

 

[handejector]

Come now, old boy, where is the stiff upper lip?

There is no Utopia. There never has been. There never will be. Our lifespans are too short. By the time people approach wisdom, they are dying. If people lived a thousand years, you might have a shot(sic) at establishing Utopia.

One major premise of natural law, and later, common law is the right to self defense. You seem to agree with that, having acquired weapons for self defense. Yet, philosophically, you are troubled because a world exists that forces you to have to even think of defending yourself against someone who would do you harm.
Well, that's tough.
I suspect you have never been in the position of experiencing first hand extreme violence perpetrated directly against you. Those who have experienced the vile things people can do to each other seldom retain your philosophical doubts. They usually choose to simply deal with the reality at hand, and be prepared to meet violence with what is, hopefully, superior violence. Trust me here- that works very well if your goal is self preservation.



I noted some interesting contradictions in two of your posts-

I bought my first one (five, actually), last week, as some of you might know.
.................. it's a shame I have to buy these, as I'm quite anti-gun, really.

I'm really interested in what you all have to say about this.

Now, I'm really having trouble with that. You have to buy these? Really? Why not simply remain in the victim pool? Time to decide where you stand, and quit whining about how wicked this culture is that forced you to buy a gun, enslaving you to gun ownership. You don't get absolution for 'higher thoughts'.

As far as the inherent danger from accidents and misuse- again, tough. That's life. Of course we have to educate people and do everything else we can to prevent it, but some risk has to be accepted, like with driving and having electricity and heat in the house. (wrecks, electrocution, fire, carbon monoxide).

I'm not necessarily trying to change anything in the USA, really.
.... I truly believe the Constitution should be restructured.

Interesting. Not trying to change anything.....

NO.
We do not want the Constitution altered. FEAR that, my friends. What you would get would not please you. NEVER let them touch it beyond some possible amendments, but watch those closely!