Is the 40 cal the best SD round

[venomballistics]

the feds got in one fatal hit with a 9 which may have been a game changer in that it deterred the perp from a route that would have had devastating effect on the agents. He, however kept on truckin. Shot guns seem to have had the greatest effect despite being used in far less than ideal conditions with both perps shielded by the car. Still didnt end the fight, but arguably took enough starch out of them to where the last coherent remains of a wounded agent was able to finish the job with a revolver.
that was a ghoulish exchange by any measure.
Had that fatal hit from the 9 been a 12 ga slug Half the problem arguable would have come to resolution far quicker and arguably would have afforded more direct attention to the remaining half.

one perp being hit 6 times and the other hit 12 times says a lot about the power of determination. The perp we encounter as civilians might be no different from Platt and Mattix.
also cross reference the agent who took devastating hits from a rifle, in some cases, shaking off the hits to keep right on a rockin, only to slow down after they realized what the tap on the shoulder was. "Oh wait dude I can't use that arm .. its GONE"
I can't carry a 155MM but I won't carry a 9MM I know my 45 may, in these cases, take a little longer to work than I'd like, even if I manage to do my part, which I'm sure would feel like an eternity. even still, the 9 took far too long, and the attacker made way too much additional gore before being made manageable with applications of everything else

 

[Arik]

Comparing 1980s 9mm HP ammo and todays quality HP ammo is apples to oranges.

Shot placement is crucial, we all know that!

There is no perfect cal. For every calibration out there there were people who, when hit, dropped dead on the spot and those who took multiple hits and kept on going.

Watching the Disc. channel not long ago when there was a special about gangs and LA gangs. One gang banger was proud to show of his wounds. Lifted his shirt to shot half a dozen 40 cal bullet holes stretching from his waist to his chest. He survived a whole bunch of shots from a 40s&w. Does that make the 40 a bad cal? No! It makes the gang banger a lucky ***

 

[venomballistics]

Comparing 1980s 9mm HP ammo and todays quality HP ammo is apples to oranges.

Shot placement is crucial, we all know that!

There is no perfect cal. For every calibration out there there were people who, when hit, dropped dead on the spot and those who took multiple hits and kept on going.

Watching the Disc. channel not long ago when there was a special about gangs and LA gangs. One gang banger was proud to show of his wounds. Lifted his shirt to shot half a dozen 40 cal bullet holes stretching from his waist to his chest. He survived a whole bunch of shots from a 40s&w. Does that make the 40 a bad cal? No! It makes the gang banger a lucky ***

12 Ga versus 9mm is apples to oranges ... 9mm then and now is more like granny smith versus McIntosh.
yeah things have advanced some, but we are still talking about the same mass at the same velocity with a slight difference in terminal performance, blown out of proportion to sell bullets at a premium.
Shot placement .. that 9 had it and I have no doubt that Platt would have eventually gave up the ghost from it ... but still not in time to save a lot of bloodshed. All things equal and the silver tip traded for a new whizbang offering ... penetration would have been given up to the latest trend in anti zombie gear.
the feds needed a truck to park on him.

 

[Kavinsky]

Kavinsky to add Federali's comments:

I'd also add the reports I've read said that the agent with the Model 19 had it loaded with the .38 special LSWCHP +P (FBI load) and not .357 rounds.

I'm not sure where your info comes from on .38 special vs 45 ACP, but they are not where close in any ballistics comparisons I've ever seen.

As far as the 9mm rounds go, Winchester acknowledged a failure of their Silvertips to perform in the shoot out and promptly redesigned them.

You are right when you say it was a lot more than hardware and ammo that caused the event, poor tactics, policy etc, but the weapon and ammo choices were a significant factors as well.

there was a guy on here who talked about it on a thread about stopping power. Where the thread poster was talking about going with a .45 acp for self defense and then this guy brought up that he could go with a .38 as well thats on par with the .45 acp power wise. as muzzle energy wise that .38 special +p 158 grain FBI load had as much muzzle energy as a .45 acp 230 grain load

although he failed to mention it was also supersonic, above 1000 FPS while the .45 acp in its normal loading is just under that at 850, not exactly a good thing in an enclosed room if one values his hearing and doesnt have time to put his earplugs on

300 or 350 foot pounds of energy I think which considering its not listed in the book I have, Cartridges of the world 12th edition by Frank C Barnes I'm not sure where he got either, but I believe he was also the one who mentioned the velocity too.

but however it does say that a 158 grain .38 special JHP going at 900 feet per second does put out 284 foot pounds on page 291 of the book. So with an extra 200 FPS it could probably reach the listed 330 foot pounds of the 230 grain load on page 300


that and well with cars sheilding the perps the only way your really going to go through them is if well you've got a proper magnum cartridge in your gun, either that or a rifle which is what I think the FBI guys should have had in the first place as an M1 Garand would have made mince meat of both of them in a heartbeat.

and only that really as a shotgun wasnt made for that kind of work, only a rifle would have put a quick end to that. hell it was one of the things ALSO said in Keith's sixguns 30 years earlier than the only way your really going to stop bad guys bent on your destruction in a car is with a proper rifle.

or atleast a shotgun with sabo slugs.

 

[Old cop]

During my 30 year LEO days I had to use my duty weapon on more than one occassion. Each time it was a .38 and it worked because I was well trained and had the best equipment available at the time.

As others have said carry what works best for you, practice as often as possible and hope you never have to find out if any of it "works."

 

[skeeterbait]

I advise not getting caught up in the hi capacity lure. Police need high capacity because they run a great risk of getting into a protracted gunfight, thus the tendance to carry 40mm or 9mm. The average citizen isn't likely to need such capacity. Per officers I know, most shootings of citizens trying to answer a threat are completed in 1 to 3 rounds. More than that and your survival chances go way down.

So with that said, the 40 has nothing on a 45 for self defense or even a 357 wheelgun.

 

[The Sarge]

Capacity is very important to me. From what I have seen on the job and changing trends. The old stats of "3 shots fired with in 3 yards" has passed with the years. Today bad guys run in packs and have the firepower too. And those on the newer, synthetic drugs take more rounds to stop their actions. More rounds are being fired today in lethal force encounters. No gunfight is average, routine, or stays in line to satisfy a statistic. When things go bad, they suddenly get worse. I will take capacity over caliber any time as with modern ammo the playing field is leveled. No one who has actually been in a gunfight has complained they had too large of a pistol and had too much ammo. Bill

 

[Faulkner]

Comparing 1980s 9mm HP ammo and todays quality HP ammo is apples to oranges.

Got that right . . . had Platt been hit with one of the new Hornady 'Zombie' rounds he would have been DRT and fight over.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Capacity is very important to me. From what I have seen on the job and changing trends. The old stats of "3 shots fired with in 3 yards" has passed with the years. Today bad guys run in packs and have the firepower too. And those on the newer, synthetic drugs take more rounds to stop their actions. More rounds are being fired today in lethal force encounters. No gunfight is average, routine, or stays in line to satisfy a statistic. When things go bad, they suddenly get worse. I will take capacity over caliber any time as with modern ammo the playing field is leveled. No one who has actually been in a gunfight has complained they had too large of a pistol and had too much ammo. Bill

I recently read an article published by the FBI which states the number of rounds expended has seen a significant increase. Wish I could find that article.

We all carry for the same reasons. But what we carry, the caliber and how we carry will always differ. The biggest factor in those decisions is the geographical area in which we live.

In you live in Smallville and think a j frame without a reload is for you, so be it although I think your nuts. But that's my opinion.

The odds of having to use a firearm to defend myself is pretty low. But I figure that if I have to, it will be just my luck to have to do so against two or more bad guys with high capacity guns.

So I carry two guns with a reload for the primary at all times. And none of them is a 40SW.

 

[venomballistics]

multi gun and or easy reloads are something I totally agree with, even in some backwater smallvile type area.
Meth labs are everywhere. they do not discriminate per population density. as a result, the possibility of a major conflict is a valid concern. much more so than it may have been 20 years ago. I think anyone who carry's a 380 in the role of solo primary is a fool. I question the reasoning of it in the role of a backup for a major caliber primary as well. I like the idea of a +P 38 snub as a BUG myself and probably wouldnt accept anything less.
My primary is a 45 auto and will likely remain a 45 auto.
Ive used speed loaders with revolvers ... While its better than a pocket full of loose cartridges they can be tricky in the clutch. Even speed shooting with a fast reload involved is often enough pressure to illustrate the potential for hangups. it could only be worse while being shot at. mag changes are far easier under pressure. We don't get to pick our gunfights .. if ever we do, its probably not justifiable. it will likely be done before the slide locks back, but long protracted shootouts can and do happen. We walk the same streets as the cops you expect to have such accounts. the players have no reason to treat us as special

 

[cluznar]

The.40 is a good gun, but I feel no matter what the caliber, if you shoot it well and have confidence in it then it is a good carry gun. Most people do not laugh at you if you shoot them in the chest with a .380 or .32...so it depends on what you like to shoot.

 

[Arik]

All i can say is there is NO perfect cal. Bigger bullets doesnt mean anything. My friend's dad was hit several times in the chest by a Yugo M67 7.62x39 projectile which has about 1500ft-lbs. He was shot under a 100 yards. All bullets hit him in the chest, center mass. This bullet does extensive damage when it yaws, after about 7in of penetration. He was shot multiple times and left for dead in the field for a few days. Today he is perfectly fine except he has no feeling in his fingers.

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