Is this an antique?

celtanan

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I have an interesting story. My father in law passed away recently. He was 88 years old. He left my son a Smith and Wesson pistol. It says 32-20 CTG on the barrel which is about 5 inches in length. On the top it has Smith and Wesson, Springfield, Mass. USA with a bunch of different dates...the last one being Dec 29, 1914. Made in the USA. It has a gold plated trigger. It is nickel in very good condition, except the gold plate has a few nicks. It has pearl grips with the engraving of an eagle holding an American flag. My husband says, it use to have a small ruby that was the eye of the eagle but it has fallen out.

My father-in-law's mother owned a barbeque restaurant in Beaumont, Texas during the 20's and 30's. It is still there in the family. It's kind of a legend in those parts. Has been there since the turn of the century. My father in law said, one day his mom went in to open up the place and found it had been broken into. Someone had cooked some beef and opened beans. They had also taken some food. Laying on the counter was this pistol. Under it, there was a note that said, if I remember correctly, thanks for the food. We were hungry. Hope we didn't mess your place up too much....Bonnie P.

His mom said, Oh my goodness, that's those white kids going around robbing and shooting up the countryside. (my father-in-law is half Indian and creole)which I guess is why she mentioned color.
I saw the note and the pistol once about 35 years ago. On the bottom of the handle is the number 117922.

It is in such good condition, I wonder if it really was made around that time or if he was just pulling my leg. We are in the process of going through almost 90 years of paperwork. That man kept everything. We haven't found the note yet but it has to be there.

Does anyone know if this is something that should be insured? Or is it a common pistol? When my son comes home from being offshore I will get him to post a picture. I don't know how. But thanks in advance for any information.
 
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Welcome to the Forum. You are describing a Military and Police 32-20 Hand Ejector, 4th Change, shipped from the factory around 1924. It is not an antique and it is a pretty common revolver. These fired a 32-20 Winchester cartridge. They were made from 1915 to 1940, with about 144,000 made.

Sounds like there has been some post factory finishes, which usually negatively affect the value. S&W did not gold plate the triggers on these guns. Hope you can get some pictures posted soon.
 
Quite the story. It might be hard to document a connection with Bonnie Parker, but wouldn't that be great if you could? Perhaps handwriting analysis on the note would help, if you can find it.
I agree with Glowe about the stocks and the gun generally. The .32-20 HE revolvers are among my favorite Smiths.
I look forward to seeing the photographs.
Jack
 
Thanks guys for the quick reply. So it was made around that time period. Very interesting. It is a pretty thing. Looks like a lady's gun. (smile)I will do my best to get the pics. Since it isn't worth much I won't worry about insuring it. I will replace the ruby I think. I'm pretty sure my son would never part with it anyways since it was from his granddad and the story connected to it. He is absolutely thrilled with it! Thanks again and we will keep digging for the note. Wouldn't that be crazy if it was true?
 
Looks like a lady's gun. (smile)

It's probably stretching the truth a bit to refer to Bonnie Parker as a "lady." :)

But I'm very happy for your son. Owning a gun that came from granddad is a great thing!

Jack
 
I disagree on the value.

IF the note can be found, it would be rather simple to have it authenticated or refuted nowadays. They use computers to compare known examples with unverified examples of handwriting.


Sooooooo, it IS a cool story, and if the note were authenticated, it would
increase the value of the gun several times.
Is anyone still alive who was an EYEWITNESS to the gun and note at the time it was found?
If so, type an affidavit of their recollection of the event, and get it signed and notarized.
IF a police report was made, or it was mentioned in the local paper, get copies.
Acquire and preserve any documentation that exists.
 
I agree Lee, but how many of these stories never get properly documented or are "embelished" over time? It would be fantastic if it could be proven that Bonnie Parker owned this revolver and the value would go through the roof, but without authentication, it is worth as much or little as any other 32-20.

We would certainly like to hear if you find the note.
 
Welcome to the forum. And thanks for sharing your family story and old S&W.

Being an "antique" is not really important relative to value of old firearms. They have an intrinsic value of their own depending on condition and rarity more than age.

Just for a guess w/o seeing your gun, you have a roughly $400 gun with maybe $200 pearl grips.

Looking forward to hearing more about what you find.
 
Any item, no matter how common, takes on an air of exclusivity and desirability (not to mention value) when there's a great story behind it!
Celt, I hope you all can locate the papers that document your revolver's past. My advice would be to insure it as soon as you can determine a value... and the enjoy your own piece of American history!
 
Celt, Hope you find the note left for your grandfather, a few months ago, 2 of the guns that were on Bonnie parker, and Clyde Barrow sold for $125,000 each. a 38 colt det. special, and a 1911 colt.
 
No one left

I disagree on the value.

IF the note can be found, it would be rather simple to have it authenticated or refuted nowadays. They use computers to compare known examples with unverified examples of handwriting.


Sooooooo, it IS a cool story, and if the note were authenticated, it would
increase the value of the gun several times.
Is anyone still alive who was an EYEWITNESS to the gun and note at the time it was found?
If so, type an affidavit of their recollection of the event, and get it signed and notarized.
IF a police report was made, or it was mentioned in the local paper, get copies.
Acquire and preserve any documentation that exists.

My father in law was an only child and outlived pretty much everyone. He was the last. I asked my husband if he remembered anyone saying anything about a police report or if grandma reported it...he just laughed and said Oh no way, they would never have called the (white eyes).Grandma just grabbed up the pistol and note and put it in a drawer. Of course it was a much different time back then and different nationalities were not trustful of each other.
I hope I haven't offended anyone with the white eyes comment. It is a little endearment in our home. I'm a green eyed Irish girl or should I say proud American of Irish descent ha ha.. and he's called me white eyes for 36 years!
He was there today and called me to say he found WWII ration books that belonged to his grandma. That is an example of what we are looking through. Like I said, the old guy saved everything!

I would also like to say how interesting this all is. I've never been on a chat site and was having trouble even finding my initial post..duh..but I think I've figured it out now. My husband and sons are gun owners. My husband won all kinds of marksman awards when he was in military school. He sends money sometimes to the NRA because my son is a member but doesn't join because he says you can't let Uncle Sam know too much about you and he really believes they are watching.
He is especially worried about this administration and is not fearful at all about speaking out about that to anyone.
 
Celt, Hope you find the note left for your grandfather, a few months ago, 2 of the guns that were on Bonnie parker, and Clyde Barrow sold for $125,000 each. a 38 colt det. special, and a 1911 colt.

Wow! Now that may possibly change his mind!:D..Not really though. Some things you just can't put a price on.
 
It's probably stretching the truth a bit to refer to Bonnie Parker as a "lady." :)

But I'm very happy for your son. Owning a gun that came from granddad is a great thing!

Jack

Awww...she was sweet and kind and wrote poetry and beautiful stories. She was also an honor student! Ha Ha I just read that today. She just happened to fall in love with a bad boy..Uh Oh! That kind of sounds like me...hee hee.. just kidding!
 
My husband just called from his dad's house, still looking for the Bonnie P letter and he has found another gun. He says it is a Winchester 44-40 with an octogon barrel. He says he thinks it was his great-grandfathers. He remembers seeing it a few times when he was a boy.
Anyone have one of these and are they rare?
 
The Winchester is a model 1873 or 1892. The model number is behind the hammer and the serial number behind the trigger. Either is a very desirable gun. Scarcity is determined by features and condition.

Bob
 
THe Winchester .44-40 will probably turn out to be either a model 1873, which introduced that caliber, or a model 1892 which is a later design that was produced into the 1930's. Either is a desirable rifle, with the 1873 generally being more valuable. As with any antique firearm, condition is the most important consideration in determining value. Winchester guns usually bring a premium based on the name, and there were many special order features that can increase value. The only way to determine value is to have someone knowledgeable do a hands on appraisal.
 
he has found another gun. He says it is a Winchester 44-40 with an octogon barrel. He says he thinks it was his great-grandfathers. He remembers seeing it a few times when he was a boy.
Anyone have one of these and are they rare?
celtanan
Go to this site, following the link
http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/winchester/
Click on Ask A Question at the top of the forum and address your question to Bert Hartman (be sure to give him the serial number). He has access to all the Winchester Polishing Room records and can give you quite a bit of information about this rifle, including the date it left the Polishing Room and was serialized. You should post some clear photographs so that he can get a good idea of the gun's condition. Then he can provide a rough estimate of its current value. This is no substitute for a hands-on inspection, but it will put you in the ballpark.
Regards,
Jack
 
One other point about old Winchester rifles. Virtually all the serial number data on Winchesters that are found on the Internet are based on the work of George Madis, from the 1950s. While Madis was a serious researcher, his compiled information was based on the data that were available at that time. Subsequent to the discovery of the old Polishing Room records and their transfer to the Cody Museum, it was proven that Madis' compilations were in error for almost every year of production - sometimes they were off by a couple years. The Cody Museum is now the only reliable source for Winchester serialization. No one should rely on the information available on the Internet because the Madis numbers are simply erroneous. This has now been documented in the Red Book of Winchester Values, by Larry Shennum and Bert Hartman, which was just released in its 3d Edition.
Jack
 

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