Is this normal leading?

[wannabe]

I have a model 14 that I wanted to shoot 158gr bullets in. The pistol I have was a safe queen and these are the first shots through it as far as I can tell.

I loaded up three groups of 10 rounds each.

First 10 rounds were Zero 158 gr LRN with 3.6 Titegroup.
After I shot those I brought the pistol in and put a couple wet patches through it. I saw no problems with lead inside or out.

Then for the next 10 shots I loaded the same but with 3.1 Bullseye. After I shot those rounds I noticed the lead on the outside front of the cylinder. I didn't have any lead in the barrel to speak of. I could not get this lead off the outside of the cylinder.

For the last group of 10 I loaded 3.4 Titegroup. The lead was still on the pistol and I can't say that it got any worse after the last rounds.

Every cylinder has about the same size spots of lead on the front of the sides. This is what is really bothering me.

So I have two questions.

Isn't this leading a bit excessive?
And what's the best way to clean the lead off the outside of the gun without harming the blue? I tried scratching back and forth with my fingernail, but that's not going to do it.

 

[TNDave]

That's pretty normal. If your bullets are swaged and your powder charges are top loads you will get leading. If that is the case, you can slow your bullet down or switch to hard cast bullets.

 

[Decker]

Looks about right for lead bullets.

What you're getting is one reason I have totally gone to stainless pistols whenever a stainless version is available, and when reloading, I use jacketed bullets in all my .357 as well as loading at the lower end of the tables.

With the jacketed bullets in light loads, my revolvers shoot accurately, are a pleasure to shoot, and I don't have to trash the bluing on my blued revolvers in order to get them clean.

 

[target tech]

Before I started reloading, I once shot a box of factory winchester 158gr RN lead through my 60-4. When I was done, the inside of the barrel, down its entire length, looked like alligator skin from the lead. Lucky for me it was a stainless gun. I spent most of an evening and half a sheet of lead removal cloth to clean the thing out. I dont know if the cases were loaded for jacketed bullets and lead RN were put in or what, but they sure made a mess. That is when I learned what barrel leading really was.

 

[old bear]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

As much as I hate to be odd man out here, IMHO that amount of leading is not normal. I shoot a fair amount of lead ammo and I’ve never had or seen that much build up, especially on the top strap and the forcing cone. I have never seen leading on the outside of the cylinder. The fouling is normal but not the amount of leading. How does the barrel look?

 

[Skip Sackett]

I will not use Titegroup in any of my firearms. One reason is that it has NILL in the case and burns hotter than other powders that do the same work but do it better. Switch to Bullseye or W231/HP-38 and see if your problem doesn't go away.

I could be wrong, but, I have never had that kind of leading on the outside of the cylinder, ever.

FWIW

 

[Smith357]

I'm with old bear, I believe that to be excessive leading. I would tone your charges down or switch powders or bullets. Cleaning up that mess can be done, but go easy and don't worry about getting it all the first time. I leaded up my Model 14 pretty bad and got the lead off the outside of the cylinder and top strap by saoking the gun in Ed's Red overnight and using a scraper made from a heavy gauge copper wire. I tweaked my loads to stop leading and the lead on the cylinder face eventually wore off after a lot of shooting a few regular cleanings.

 

[sheriffoconee]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

As much as I hate to be odd man out here, IMHO that amount of leading is not normal. I shoot a fair amount of lead ammo and I’ve never had or seen that much build up, especially on the top strap and the forcing cone. I have never seen leading on the outside of the cylinder. The fouling is normal but not the amount of leading. How does the barrel look?

beat me to it, I have never seen leading on the OUTSIDE of any of my revolver cylinders...seems like an awful lotta leading to me...

 

[Nightowl]

It appears to me there is lead buildup on just a part of the forcing cone. That could mean the timing is not quite right or that the cylinder charge holes to not line up well with the barrel. I shoot a lot of lead bullets and do not remember having that much lead on the cylinder.

 

[stevieboy]

Here's a possibility that no one's considering. It may not be lead at all, but carbon deposits. Carbon deposits look exactly like the deposits in the photos. You'll know if it's carbon by gently probing one of those deposits with a dental pick. If the deposit breaks down into a black, crumbly substance, then it's carbon.

If so, that could very much be a function of the powder you're using. Even with commercial ammo, some varieties produce more carbon than others. My 625, for example, will very quickly build up carbon deposits just inside the forcing cone with certain commercial rounds. Other makers' rounds cause it no problems at all.

 

[chief38]

Had you stated that you fired 100 + rounds I would say the leading on you gun looks heavy, but normal. For a string of 30 rounds, I would say that is a bit on the heavy side. Check the B/C Gap and see if it is larger than normal. I usually like them to be no more than .006". You can also get a Range Rod and check the barrel cylinder alignment to make sure you are not "shaving" lead.

Chief38

 

[H Richard]

Switching to a hard cast bullet will reduce the leading to near nothing. I wouldn't continue to load Titegroup as it does burn hotter, and can actually melt the base of the bullet as it leaves the case if loaded hot enough. 3.4 gr though is a relatively mild load.

 

[Stophel]

Lead down the barrel is one thing, but you've got lead in places it shouldn't be. I think something is outta whack. How loose is your cylinder bolt/stop fit? Does it lock up relatively tight, or can the cylinder still rotate a bit with the hammer cocked?

 

[Skip Sackett]

Okay, here are some pictures of my M25 -7 after I shot today. This is after over 100 rounds of a home cast bullet, H&G #502 (wheel weights) sized to .452" and lubed with White Label Lube's Carnuba Red lube, sitting atop 9.2gr of a surplus Unique powder.

If you know anything about reloading, Unique is one of the reasons folks run for the "cleanest" burning powders. And, yes, the gun is filthy. I will have to clean it at some point anyway!

Pictures of it dirty, right after shooting:

I took a dry towel/rag that I had in my shooting bag and wiped it down. No special attention payed to any certain area. No lube or cleaner of any kind. The rag is dirty now and so were my hands but, again, I have to wash anyway so....... Okay, here you go:

Now, powder type matters. Bullet size, or rather fit in your firearm, matters. There is NO lead down the barrel, period. This load pushed the 240gr LSWC at just over 1000fps from this firearm. Accurate enough to hit a chunk of 6X6 @ 50 yards every time.

Check out the reloading area of the forum and ask some questions there. I'll bet you find some more information there.

Hope this helps!

 

[wannabe]

Well... I'm starting to think it's a gun problem.

I went out last night and shot 5 rounds using Missouri 158 SWC with a brinell rating of 18 and 3.3 Titegroup (instead of the softer Zero swagged bullets) and every shot gave me lead on the outside of the cylinder.

I shoot these same bullets in my 586 with no problems at all using a 357 case and 14.80 of 2400.

Tonight I shot one round with the same bullet using 2.7 Bullseye and I got just as much lead on my cylinder.

Now a couple things. I checked the cylinder to barrel gap with a filler gauge and I have .005 on the right and .010 on the left side.

The lead is coming out of the top of the gap and then splattering back down on top of the cylinder.

Before I ever shot this pistol I had my gunsmith drill and tap it for a scope mount. The front hole of the three is located directly above the gap. It doesn't have a screw in it because I'm now shooting the pistol with the original open rear sight.

That lead shooting out of the gap must be going up into the hole and coming straight back down on top of the cylinder.

Still should this much lead be coming out of the gap?
2.7 Bullseye shouldn't be hot at all.

I was able to clean the lead off with some Fitz metal polish and a cotton swab, but it's starting to remove the blue.

Again this was a new pistol as far as I could tell.

 

[Stophel]

It should be .005" all the way around. If you can find a good pistolsmith (one that actually does work on S&W Revolvers, not just a general gunsmith), he can take off the barrel, and turn it down and set it back a thread, and square up the breechface to the proper distance.

 

[PH-2]

wannabe,

Is it spitting? As mentioned, it could be a timing problem as well as a gap inconsistency. You may get by on the gap by just squaring-off the forcing cone if you can live with (I can) the .010 gap.
If it is new, call Springfield, get the shipping label include the pics, and ask them to bring it up to spec.

Mike

 

[wannabe]

I think it's time I contact Smith & Wesson and see what they can do.

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[trulyapostolic]

Well... I'm starting to think it's a gun problem.

I went out last night and shot 5 rounds using Missouri 158 SWC with a brinell rating of 18 and 3.3 Titegroup (instead of the softer Zero swagged bullets) and every shot gave me lead on the outside of the cylinder.

I shoot these same bullets in my 586 with no problems at all using a 357 case and 14.80 of 2400.

Tonight I shot one round with the same bullet using 2.7 Bullseye and I got just as much lead on my cylinder.

Now a couple things. I checked the cylinder to barrel gap with a filler gauge and I have .005 on the right and .010 on the left side.

The lead is coming out of the top of the gap and then splattering back down on top of the cylinder.

Before I ever shot this pistol I had my gunsmith drill and tap it for a scope mount. The front hole of the three is located directly above the gap. It doesn't have a screw in it because I'm now shooting the pistol with the original open rear sight.

That lead shooting out of the gap must be going up into the hole and coming straight back down on top of the cylinder.

Still should this much lead be coming out of the gap?
2.7 Bullseye shouldn't be hot at all.

I was able to clean the lead off with some Fitz metal polish and a cotton swab, but it's starting to remove the blue.

Again this was a new pistol as far as I could tell.

I've got a 14-4 that I use for bullseye distinguished revolver competition. What your showing is exactly what my gun does. I shoot Zero/Magnus swaged 158 swc bullets above 3.1 gr. Bullseye. I've tested upwards of 3.5 gr. Bullseye without any issues. Your load isn't excessive but I've also wondered if my cylinder throat to bullet diameter is correct. Maybe it should be smaller or larger?
Yourself along with everyone else who reads this will probably think I'm ridiculous, but I haven't cleaned my gun for at least 1500 rounds. If I think about it later I'll post a picture. But, the leading will take me a couple days to get off once the cleaning process starts. I use Shooter's Choice lead remover along with a Pro Shot metal care cloth.
If you find a solution, that doesn't kill accuracy, I'd love to hear it.

 

[50 target]

I shoot mainly cast bullets and a varied assortment of powders. I have noticed from times past that I would have a very thin line of deposits on the outside of the cylinder at the very front edge. I believe that is due to a variety of problems, a lot of them discussed here. I believe the OP may be on to sopmething about that extra screw in the top strap. In looking at his pictures, the screw appears to be in the middle of the fouling slot in the underside of the top strap and if you look at the outside of the cylinder, the deposit appears concentrated in the center of that chamber and is a half a circle, almost like half of the screwhole over the forward end of the cylinder.. Hummmm ? I believe the fouling is getting concentrated in that area due to the gases being deflected by that hole and sent straight back on the cylinder, instead of being distributed to the sides as would be normally the case.

Possibly one way to tell is to take a filler screw and put in that hole flush with the bottom of the top strap and shoot it with either the sight on it or not. If you get the same results, then off to Smith. If not, keep the screw in place and mount the sight leaf and keep on truckin. Keep us updated on this interesting situation and good luck.

Bob