It has been alleged . . .

[rednichols]

. . . that carrying a pistol along the waist at 4:00 is as dangerous as carrying it at 1:00; on my 'new paradigm' post which has been somewhat hijacked. So a new thread on the topic of muzzling.

Some have heard Cooper's apocryphal story of knowing a chap who shot himself in the bum whilst carrying/drawing/holstering (not specified) in 'kidney' position. Standing, sitting, twisting? Also not specified. I'll assume drawing and we've long since learnt not to switch the safety off on a pistol until the muzzle is moving directly towards the target.

Anyway, this was all done in the light of my personal, professional objection to wearing any pistol, much less a striker pistol, across the belly (that is, any position across the front that is in the region of 12:00). Isn't it equally egregious -- and hypocritical -- to sell holsters that can (only) be worn at 3:00 to 4:00 (which I do, to the exclusion of all others)? Well, no, it's not:

at 4:00

at the belly

These are old pics, not created for this thread but for previous threads other forums. I recall I've a SIG P226 in the pics; don't get too hung up on that, the concept applies to all types of pistol. Also: the belt in the images is 'clocked': remarked from Noon (the buckle) all the way 'round, so the designation as 4:00 is not an estimate after the fact (I have all the other clocking images, too).

So: on the 'new paradigm' thread I posted a challenge to other holster makers, which was promptly 'failed'. Here I would pose a different challenge; anyone can play: imagine (let's not do this in real life) a contest in which I have my Condition One 1911 holstered at 4:00 as shown in my pic above; and you or a friend have your Glock holstered in Condition One (well, in this case there is no 'locked) at the belly.

In this imaginary contest, and realising that the yellow rod is meant to trace the bullet trajectory; which one of us will 'win' when we are both seated, and someone pulls the trigger as it clears the holster?

Well, I've 'cheated', haven't I? My Condtion One 1911 has a thumb safety AND a grip safety. Nothing at all will happen when the trigger is pulled. Not so the Glock: bang.

I'm not being a smart a** (asterisks mine); and I'm not proposing that anyone try this at home. To me (perhaps only me?) the hypothetical 'winner' is obvious; and it's as true at your favourite cafe as it is in theory, which is why I do not offer holsters that can be worn this way; and I don't see why anyone else does, either.

 

[jmace57]

Red -

All I can say is when I look at where the muzzle is pointed while at 4 o'clock...and where it's pointed while at 1 o'clock...I'd select 4 o'clock!

That said, there's a couple of pretty ugly pictures going around one of the boards where someone (somehow) was wearing at 4 o'clock and was getting out of a car and managed to ventilate his posterior.

 

[Iggy]

Ugh! You speak'm heap big truth Red Nichols!! Spoken in my best Lil Beaver imitation voice.

 

[snuffy51]

Even if I had any idea what a 'paradigm' is, I still think, given a choice, I would rather get shot in the butt than anything else even near the front.

 

[nodpete]

I carry at 1:00 WITH a DA only auto. Not concerned at all.

 

[rednichols]

Keeping in mind that safety (I'm a nut about safety in all aspects of life not just holsters) is not about 'managing risk' but about 'eliminating all unnecessary risk', I have heard no argument that belly carry is a 'necessary risk'.

Given that it was NEVER done in the 20th century with autos or revolvers, what has changed about the 21st century, then? That is, what made belly carry appear to be a necessary risk?

I rode a very big bike (means 'motorcycle' here) for several years because it was necessary to get me to work. I never, ever rode it for any other reason. And when I no longer needed to ride, to get to work, I never rode again. Not that I didn't like riding, it was no longer a necessary risk.

 

[rwsmith]

What's with the.........

. . . that carrying a pistol along the waist at 4:00 is as dangerous as carrying it at 1:00; on my 'new paradigm' post which has been somewhat hijacked. So a new thread on the topic of muzzling.

Some have heard Cooper's apocryphal story of knowing a chap who shot himself in the bum whilst carrying/drawing/holstering (not specified) in 'kidney' position. Standing, sitting, twisting? Also not specified. I'll assume drawing and we've long since learnt not to switch the safety off on a pistol until the muzzle is moving directly towards the target.


Anyway, this was all done in the light of my personal, professional objection to wearing any pistol, much less a striker pistol, across the belly (that is, any position across the front that is in the region of 12:00). Isn't it equally egregious -- and hypocritical -- to sell holsters that can (only) be worn at 3:00 to 4:00 (which I do, to the exclusion of all others)? Well, no, it's not:

View attachment 298985 at 4:00

View attachment 298986 at the belly

These are old pics, not created for this thread but for previous threads other forums. I recall I've a SIG P226 in the pics; don't get too hung up on that, the concept applies to all types of pistol. Also: the belt in the images is 'clocked': remarked from Noon (the buckle) all the way 'round, so the designation as 4:00 is not an estimate after the fact (I have all the other clocking images, too).

So: on the 'new paradigm' thread I posted a challenge to other holster makers, which was promptly 'failed'. Here I would pose a different challenge; anyone can play: imagine (let's not do this in real life) a contest in which I have my Condition One 1911 holstered at 4:00 as shown in my pic above; and you or a friend have your Glock holstered in Condition One (well, in this case there is no 'locked) at the belly.

In this imaginary contest, and realising that the yellow rod is meant to trace the bullet trajectory; which one of us will 'win' when we are both seated, and someone pulls the trigger as it clears the holster?

Well, I've 'cheated', haven't I? My Condtion One 1911 has a thumb safety AND a grip safety. Nothing at all will happen when the trigger is pulled. Not so the Glock: bang.

I'm not being a smart a** (asterisks mine); and I'm not proposing that anyone try this at home. To me (perhaps only me?) the hypothetical 'winner' is obvious; and it's as true at your favourite cafe as it is in theory, which is why I do not offer holsters that can be worn this way; and I don't see why anyone else does, either.

''


What's with the tin whistle coming out the bottom of your holster?

 

[Walkingwolf]

I tape my carry gun to my forehead with duct tape...(sarcasm alert)

 

[sigp220.45]

I carried my trusty Glock 27 in a sturdy IWB holster inbetween my belt buckle and right front pocket off and on for about 20 years, spanning both the 20th and 21st centuries. I made many a draw from it when making arrests.

Somehow I did not shoot myself in the nether regions. Also, the gun never took it upon itself to shoot me on its own.

Some of you fine folks overthink this stuff to death.

Its is fun to read, though.

 

[rednichols]

I carried my trusty Glock 27 in a sturdy IWB holster inbetween my belt buckle and right front pocket off and on for about 20 years, spanning both the 20th and 21st centuries. I made many a draw from it when making arrests.

Somehow I did not shoot myself in the n6ether regions. Also, the gun never took it upon itself to shoot me on its own.

Some of you fine folks overthink this stuff to death.

Its is fun to read, though.

It is fun isn't it?

Your comment reminds me about the chap (true story) who had his back broken when he was hit on his bike. "I've been riding for 20 years. If it can happen to me it can happen to anyone". Nope, not at all. Good or bad, if it happened to you, it ca't happen to anyone.

I'd say some people don't think enough!

 

[Wise_A]

In this imaginary contest, and realising that the yellow rod is meant to trace the bullet trajectory; which one of us will 'win' when we are both seated, and someone pulls the trigger as it clears the holster?

Well, I've 'cheated', haven't I? My Condtion One 1911 has a thumb safety AND a grip safety. Nothing at all will happen when the trigger is pulled. Not so the Glock: bang.

Grip safety will be deactivated when you grip. Thumb safety will be deactivated shortly thereafter. Plenty of people have shot themselves or had very near misses at action pistol events--regardless of pistol design.

Frankly, Red, that kind of reliance on manual safety features is dangerous.

 

[bigwheelzip]

I rode a very big bike (means 'motorcycle' here) for several years because it was necessary to get me to work. I never, ever rode it for any other reason. And when I no longer needed to ride, to get to work, I never rode again. Not that I didn't like riding, it was no longer a necessary risk.

I read about the Aussie critters causing problems on the roads there.
Come visit us for a ride here in the Smoky Mountains. Avoid riding at dusk and dawn for the deer, and the rest of the day it feels like a private playground.

How do you feel about canted cross-draw carry?

 

[SailDesign]

I tape my carry gun to my forehead with duct tape...(sarcasm alert)

You need one of these guys there. Easier to spot.

 

[eb07]

I have been carrying appendix since before it was cool to carry appendix. Double decades now and none of my 1911's, revolvers, glocks, or other myriad of firearms has ever gone off.

Why?

Because I carry in a proper holster that I inspect before I utilize and I don't allow my finger or other items such as belts, shirt tails etc get into the trigger guard.

It's not that hard, really.

 

[fatcat3]

with all the safety experts, and the if ya aint doing it my way your wrong people................ we will never do anything

 

[uncleted327]

I guess I don't understand the amount of concern on this topic. If you have a gun on your waist at any position, or in your pocket, and it goes off, there's a pretty good chance it will impact you in some way. It all comes down to your level of safe handling. I've yet to find a method of carry that never involves the muzzle pointing at something of mine at some point in the day.

 

[CQB27]

When off duty I have been carrying a pistol at 1 o'clock.....since 1994. Sometimes a J frame Smith, but most of that time the DREADED Glock.

I agree that appendix/1 o'clock carry is not for everyone (mostly because of big belly syndrome, lol), but to not understand why any other holster maker makes a holster for this type of carry is a little left of opinion and more centered on bias I think. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with a man's own choosing of a personal bias when it comes to holster make/position, but it is what it is, and nothing more...

 

[ExcitableBoy]

Keeping in mind that safety (I'm a nut about safety in all aspects of life not just holsters) is not about 'managing risk' but about 'eliminating all unnecessary risk', I have heard no argument that belly carry is a 'necessary risk'.

Given that it was NEVER done in the 20th century with autos or revolvers, what has changed about the 21st century, then? That is, what made belly carry appear to be a necessary risk?

I rode a very big bike (means 'motorcycle' here) for several years because it was necessary to get me to work. I never, ever rode it for any other reason. And when I no longer needed to ride, to get to work, I never rode again. Not that I didn't like riding, it was no longer a necessary risk.

"NEVER done in the 20th century"? I guess I must be from the future, then, as I've been belly carrying J-frames and compact semis since the mid-70s with ZERO problems!

Your over-concern for the "safety" of packing a handgun in various positions seems to follow your over-concern for riding motorcycles, as "it was no longer a necessary risk." I guess that you'll be just totally horrified by the fact that I belly carry while riding!

If I were so afraid that I wouldn't CC, or ride motorcycle, for that matter, without your approval of gear and method, I, too, might move to Australia and hide from the rest of the world. We're hammered every day by various sources that tell us that just BREATHING is dangerous!

Sorry, I prefer to use the bubble wrap for shipping packages, not as everyday personal wear. To each his own. After 67 years of living, I think that I may have learned enough to evaluate and mitigate the pitfalls we all face as we take the journey through life. Not having a "Red Nichols approved" holster and how I clock it is way down on my list of worries. For myself it is a non-existent problem that requires no solution.

G'day, mate.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I'd like to see a picture of that fella' standing straight up with the dowel rod through the barrel . . .

What about IWB at 4 O'Clock . . . ?

(You make IWB holsters, right?)

 

[rednichols]

Grip safety will be deactivated when you grip. Thumb safety will be deactivated shortly thereafter. Plenty of people have shot themselves or had very near misses at action pistol events--regardless of pistol design.

Frankly, Red, that kind of reliance on manual safety features is dangerous.

You didn't think through my post at all. The person pulling the trigger is not the wearer; remember this all came up because of a third party pulling the trigger? In my 'Schroedinger's (sp?) Cat' proposed experiment, 'we' will holster and someone else will pull the trigger. We'll use blanks .

Let's suppose my gunsmith has completely let me down. My thumb safety doesn't work, my grip safety doesn't work, and my pistol goes off. Same result: at 4:00 I will get a powder burn, you will be in hospital (hopefully) wishing you could change your bet!

Seriously, though, my post isn't about worrying for you all. I completely respect your right to make a choice. I just refuse to enable your bad choice and so I found a way to absolutely prevent it: my designs don't work in those positions. How about a little respect for 'walking the talk', eh?

What I DO wonder (I'm not 'shouting', it's just simpler than selecting to underline): if as I propose, a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks, what has changed that belly carry has become necessary; that it, no other location will suffice?

Comments on that would be appreciated, rather than the 'seat belt defence' ('I drove cars for thirty years without seat belts and didn't die, I don't need them now'): personally I drove cars for thirty years without airbags without dying, which doesn't prove anything at all.