It looked so sad and unloved...*Now with pictures*

[MKT]

My local enabler had a little S&W that looked, simply put, butt-ugly. A closer look revealed it is most likely a pre-Victory lend lease gun.

Serial # 907414, barrel marked 38 S&W. Lanyard loop hole not plugged but loop missing. Bottom of grip has the flaming bomb, WB and the "P" proof. Top strap does not have US Property or any variation of that, also bears an additional proof mark on the left side of the frame at the barrel of 38/380 and K60 on the backstrap. On the bad side - the gun has been bead blasted and appears to be in the white. It has been converted to .38 Special, but the chambers were not bored, the cylinder and crane have been replaced using old M&P parts (judging by the serial #530092) and the front sight has been filed or milled shorter. The hammer and trigger have both been bumper chromed. It is also wearing black washer diamond magnas not numbered to the gun.

When I can get it out of CA detention I will post a couple shots of it. It is so ugly all I did was ask "how low will you go for it" and they quoted a lower price and agreed to pay the DROS fee. I couldn't pass.

A letter will likely be in order if only to learn where it had originally been shipped. Assuming somewhere in the Commonwealth but not England.

 

[MKT]

My local enabler had a little S&W that looked, simply put, butt-ugly. A closer look revealed it is most likely a pre-Victory lend lease gun.

Serial # 907414, barrel marked 38 S&W. Lanyard loop hole not plugged but loop missing. Bottom of grip has the flaming bomb, WB and the "P" proof. Top strap does not have US Property or any variation of that, also bears an additional proof mark on the left side of the frame at the barrel of 38/380 and K60 on the backstrap. On the bad side - the gun has been bead blasted and appears to be in the white. It has been converted to .38 Special, but the chambers were not bored, the cylinder and crane have been replaced using old M&P parts (judging by the serial #530092) and the front sight has been filed or milled shorter. The hammer and trigger have both been bumper chromed. It is also wearing black washer diamond magnas not numbered to the gun.

When I can get it out of CA detention I will post a couple shots of it. It is so ugly all I did was ask "how low will you go for it" and they quoted a lower price and agreed to pay the DROS fee. I couldn't pass.

A letter will likely be in order if only to learn where it had originally been shipped. Assuming somewhere in the Commonwealth but not England.

 

[digi-shots]

Every gun deserves a good home...

Anxious to see pics of it when you get it.

Serial number puts it close to some New Zealand pre-Victory's.... but they normally have US Property on the top strap.

Could the K60 on the backstrap actually be a 4 digit number? Did you see an NZ^ above the number?

 

[skeezix]

What does D R O S stand for, and how much is it?

 

[2152hq]

Tough to pass up those old beat up ones isn't it!! I bought one similar to that, been reblued a couple of times, Franzite grips, no lanyard loop, still in 38S&W though and a nice action. Still haven't done anything with it, but just had to have it!
>
>

Originally posted by skeezix:
What does D R O S stand for, and how much is it?

It means Dealer Record Of Sale...Don't know if there is a standard fee in CA

 

[m-1911]

I have some parts if you want to upgrade it. I have some triggers, hammers, grips and lanyard loops

 

[MKT]

Well, I won't be able to take a closer look for at least another 10 days. I'm pretty sure the back strap is stamped K60, but I'll look closer under magnification when I have it in hand. I'll check the top strap closely as well, but under the shop light I could not see any indication of stamping.

DROS, as already stated is Dealer Record Of Sale, and seems to average about $30 per gun. Lower price and the dealer paying the DROS clinched the deal for me.

I know it is going to need a hammer and trigger to replace the bumper chromed pieces it currently has. Looking in the lanyard hole I noticed it will also need a lanyard crosspin. But all that can wait for a couple weeks. Thanks for the offer.

 

[CI_SeaWolf]

m-1911, Gary. I'm looking for grips, and a lanyard loop for mine. Please drop me a line.

Thanks!

 

[m-1911]

Your e mail is not in your profile. E mail me at [email protected]

 

[MKT]

I was able to pick up my Pre-Victory this morning. Got it home and started looking it over closely and found it will fit in my Police Issue collection very nicely (and a complete surprise too boot).

Any way, as you'll see in the pictures it appears to have been satin nickled at some point. I found an Osterreich Polizei stamp under the left grip panel, This likely explains the K60 rack stmp on the back strap. It bears the WB inspectors stamp, with a faint box line, "P" proof and flaming bomb, all on the bottom of the grip. I find no US Property markings, even under magnification...not even a hint of these markings. The Polizei my have been the ones to mill the front sight with a flat top and sqared out the rear notch.

The gun has been rechambered for .38 special by installation of an older M&P cylinder and crane. Funny thing on the cylinder, between chambers it almost appears to have possibly Japanese proof marks. A couple of these marks show in the pictures.

I believe I have a correct new hammer and trigger to replace the bumper shop chromed ones. Still need to locate a lanyard loop and pin, as well as correct service stocks. It has a nice set of 1950's diamond magnas (at least I think they are 50's). I have all next week off so I'm hoping to get a little range time.

Osterreich Polizei marking

Rack number?

sorry this one would not come out clear. I'll try again later.

Top strap shots, showing no US Property markings, squared rear notch and the possible Japanese proofs on the cylinder.

Will definitely be requesting a letter on this one. When I receive it I will provide the shipping details for the Victory Database.

 

[Art Doc]

The problem is the .360 bore in the barrel. Accuracy will suffer using .357 bullets. The best thing would be to swap on an original cylinder but parts, refinishing, etc and you are spending far more than the gun will ever be worth.

This is why I don't buy project guns any more. It took me a couple decades to figure it out but eventually I realized that they are never a good deal. If I don't like the gun the way it is, I pass on it.

I wouldn't know what to do with this specimen. It needs so much but it's not worth fixing.

I saw some pics not long ago where a highroad forum member refinished a gun like this at home using cold blue (really meant for touch ups). He worked slowly and carefully and I was surprised at how good it looked when he was done.

 

[2152hq]

Could the proof marks on the cylinder possibly be the W. German post war Ulm Proof House mark (deer antler). The next to last pic looks a bit like it, there's lots of slight variations. But with the cylinder and crane not being original to the gun, no telling where those parts have been in their lives! Good luck in your search

 

[MKT]

Originally posted by 2152hq:
Could the proof marks on the cylinder possibly be the W. German post war Ulm Proof House mark (deer antler). The next to last pic looks a bit like it, there's lots of slight variations. But with the cylinder and crane not being original to the gun, no telling where those parts have been in their lives! Good luck in your search

Here is a not-so-artistic rendition of what the proofs on the cylinder look like.

Hand drawn while looking at the mark under magnification, hold the gun level looking at the left side. I have no idea of how these mark should be oriented to be read.

 

[MKT]

Originally posted by SaxonPig:
The problem is the .360 bore in the barrel. Accuracy will suffer using .357 bullets. The best thing would be to swap on an original cylinder but parts, refinishing, etc and you are spending far more than the gun will ever be worth.

This is why I don't buy project guns any more. It took me a couple decades to figure it out but eventually I realized that they are never a good deal. If I don't like the gun the way it is, I pass on it.

I wouldn't know what to do with this specimen. It needs so much but it's not worth fixing.

I saw some pics not long ago where a highroad forum member refinished a gun like this at home using cold blue (really meant for touch ups). He worked slowly and carefully and I was surprised at how good it looked when he was done.

I understand and appreciate all you offer, however I bought this one simply because it struck my "neato" chord. No plans to restore it, but would like to replace the missing lanyard and maybe even put the period correct grips on it.

It is a nifty piece of history that doubled as a law enforcement duty gun for the polizei post war. My interest is police issued/duty carried, pieces.

I suspect it'll shoot wadcutters just fine, I'll even try some of my .358 semi-wads. I'll let you know how it does.

 

[Speedo2]

The dull color suggests that the grips may have plastic medallions. If so, they are sort of scarce and if sold could help to defer some of your rehabilitation costs. I'd try a hot needle on an non-visible, or well hidden surface area to see if the tend to melt. Another way would be to clean them with acitone and see if they chemically melt. The second method is not recommended and don't ask me how I know about it. -S2

 

[2152hq]

Originally posted by MKT:
Here is a not-so-artistic rendition of what the proofs on the cylinder look like.

>
That's a perfectly fine rendition of the proofs and they most certainly are NOT anything even close to a Ulm Proof House mark! I've never seen that one before. BTW I've had a couple of 38S&W's converted to Special and they shot 38Special W/C and even some SWC just fine. Not Bullseye Target accuracy, but certainly more than acceptable for an M&P. You're only talking each groove approx .00015" to .002" deeper than a 38special Bbl.

 

[moosedog]

Interesting old piece of history there.
I agree that with some "hollow based wadcutters" you could achieve some decent accuracy. Let us know how you do when you fire it.

 

[glypnir]

It looks like your autofocus is focusing on the wood. You need to put some high contrast line right in the center of the picture to get the auto focus to work properly. Most point and shoot cameras tend to have one focus spot in the middle, so far as I know.

I'd say put the lanyard hole near the center. Or the serial number. That should provide enough contrast.

sorry this one would not come out clear. I'll try again later.

 

[MKT]

Thanks for the tip. I'll keep trying, so far every shot I have tried of the serial number seems to want to focus on the upper (lower) portion of the frame. Most of my macro shots have been pure luck, like this shot of the patent lines from my .32-20

 

[ricketts]

Originally posted by SaxonPig:
The problem is the .360 bore in the barrel. Accuracy will suffer using .357 bullets. The best thing would be to swap on an original cylinder but parts, refinishing, etc and you are spending far more than the gun will ever be worth.

This is why I don't buy project guns any more. It took me a couple decades to figure it out but eventually I realized that they are never a good deal. If I don't like the gun the way it is, I pass on it.

I wouldn't know what to do with this specimen. It needs so much but it's not worth fixing.

I saw some pics not long ago where a highroad forum member refinished a gun like this at home using cold blue (really meant for touch ups). He worked slowly and carefully and I was surprised at how good it looked when he was done.

With all due respect, why in the world must EVERY gun look like it came out of the factory? Not everything needs restored. What is wrong with leaving things just as they are for what they are? You can't change history. You wouldn't 'restore' the gun that killed Kennedy.

History is history--and it is perfectly OK to leave things alone.