J. Edgar Hoover's Reg. Magnum (Reg. No. 1)

[mikepriwer]

Larry

I think Dick is referring to something else - namely the destruction of registered
magnums. Here is a partial list of guns that apparently were destroyed: the full list is a lot
longer. The numbers are serial numbers - from about the late 1930's .

52703 Destroyed by FBI
52704 Destroyed by FBI
52706 Destroyed by FBI
52707 In FBI inventory as of Sep 17, 2005
52708 In FBI inventory as of Sep 17, 2005
52711 Destroyed by FBI
52713 Destroyed by FBI
52714 Destroyed by FBI
52716 In FBI inventory as of Sep 17, 2005
52765 Destroyed by FBI
52766 Destroyed by FBI
52767 Destroyed by FBI
52769 Destroyed by FBI
52772 Destroyed by FBI
52776 Destroyed by FBI
52778 In FBI inventory as of Sep 17, 2005

I'd be interested in your comments on this.

On another matter, and relating to your posted comments, which I really did appreciate, I've
noticed one thing. In the totality of all the comments in this thread, there has never been a
statement to the effect that the gun is free from any US Government and/or Agency claim.

It may be the case that the Government and/or any Agency has no claim on the gun, but no one
has ever come out , and said that. It may be that no one has that knowledge, or it may be that
even if they know, for certain, that there is no Government claim, they can not make that
statement, for whatever reason. It may be that someone knows that there is a Government claim, and
can not make that statement, for whatever reason.

Either way, without knowing, for certain, the Governments absolute position in the matter, that
adds another level of uncertainty to the issue.

Again, thanks for your comments. It is the case that this topic has received a lot of coverage,
many times, but that is probably indicative of the interest level.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[lw]

Guys look.........and I hate to get windy on this because my carpal tunnel problems are killing me..

Having worked under Hoover at HQ from 1968 until his death and until 1975 when I entered new Agent's training, I had an opportunity see and hear a lot. I was at the time a regular on the FBI's tour route and entertained the public with much of it from '68 to '75. I knew pretty much what we had and didn't have.

Being a "fan" of the gangster era from being a kid, and setting my website up as such, I can appreciate your concern over the destruction of the Magnums. The Thompson fans are not happy with the destruction of the Thompsons either.

The destruction of these guns over the years is regulated by many laws, rules and more that none of us had, or ever will have, any control over. It's very easy to sit back and say "you never should have done that." I've done it a million times over with regard to Bureau historical "stuff."

But you cannot apply the thoughts and the logic of 2008, to the thoughts, the rules, and the laws that existed years ago. As much as we'd like to, you cannot do it. It was all a different time; a different era; a different way to think.

Last year, I reviewed 30,000 or so pages of the Dillinger file looking for a paper trail of his gun. We found the trail; we found the gun.

But in that review I notice many things destroyed as a matter of course in that case. For example, Baby Face Nelson's bullet proof vest from Little Bohemia hit the dumpster. It was deteriorating, it was falling apart, and there was no reason to keep it when destroyed some 50 or so years ago. Today, people would say "are you nuts?" Who would have thought 50 years ago that Nelson's vest would have been of any value to anyone?

It and other items like it were taking up valuable storage space. Fact of life and if anyone on here is a copper, you know what I'm referring to.

The biggest mistake many on these forums make is "assuming" that much of these things meant something to the FBI and history "back then." That Hoover and Tolson, or the FBI in general, would not "have done such a thing," as give them away; throw them out or whatever.

You're wrong. None of it made a difference to either of them. Nor, any surrounding them. Deke DeLoach, Hoover's number 3 man who is still alive today, will tell you the same thing and I've spoken on many occasions to him about all of this.

THERE WERE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS HAPPENING!

Many of you today in 2008 are way over emphasizing the importance of this historical stuff in the Bureau and it's simply not true. Is/was it right? No.........but "no" under today's rules, beliefs etc. NOT (emphasis added) what were the beliefs of years ago.

Until you can separate this, you won't understand it. In 2008, you can be as critical as you want about what happened in the past.

But don't we really do that with everything?

Why didn't certain things happen on the Titanic that, with regard to the radio transmissions, many think would have prevented the crash?

The #1 was given to Hoover and there's documentation to prove it. Where it went is anybody's guess right now. But as someone else said to the effect of "crap, if we find it, what else is there to talk about? "

I've got some pretty bad news for the holder of the gun, if at all he/she exists: if there's an admission along the way that you have the gun, and you're thinking SWAT or others will be knocking on your door to get it, you have probably self expulsioned yourself into an unreal realm of self importance. Don't hold your breath. You're going to be quite disappointed to say the least.

 

[lw]

Mike, I hope this shows up properly here but I'm a bit rusty on this forum and "how to post" stuff:

Check my recent posting on this and if it doesn't answer your question, get back to me on here. I do think that Magnums in question you mention were destroyed.

cheers
larry wack

Originally posted by mikepriwer:
Larry

I think Dick is referring to something else - namely the destruction of registered
magnums. Here is a partial list of guns that apparently were destroyed: the full list is a lot
longer. The numbers are serial numbers - from about the late 1930's .

52703 Destroyed by FBI
52704 Destroyed by FBI
52706 Destroyed by FBI
52707 In FBI inventory as of Sep 17, 2005
52708 In FBI inventory as of Sep 17, 2005
52711 Destroyed by FBI
52713 Destroyed by FBI
52714 Destroyed by FBI
52716 In FBI inventory as of Sep 17, 2005
52765 Destroyed by FBI
52766 Destroyed by FBI
52767 Destroyed by FBI
52769 Destroyed by FBI
52772 Destroyed by FBI
52776 Destroyed by FBI
52778 In FBI inventory as of Sep 17, 2005

I'd be interested in your comments on this.

On another matter, and relating to your posted comments, which I really did appreciate, I've
noticed one thing. In the totality of all the comments in this thread, there has never been a
statement to the effect that the gun is free from any US Government and/or Agency claim.

It may be the case that the Government and/or any Agency has no claim on the gun, but no one
has ever come out , and said that. It may be that no one has that knowledge, or it may be that
even if they know, for certain, that there is no Government claim, they can not make that
statement, for whatever reason. It may be that someone knows that there is a Government claim, and
can not make that statement, for whatever reason.

Either way, without knowing, for certain, the Governments absolute position in the matter, that
adds another level of uncertainty to the issue.

Again, thanks for your comments. It is the case that this topic has received a lot of coverage,
many times, but that is probably indicative of the interest level.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[jspick]

lw,
Well so much for cashing in on RM#1, You just dropped the value by 50%

John

 

[bk43]

Larry, just want to thank you for your posts. I, and I'm sure others, find them very interesting. Best of luck to you and the others involved in preserving history.

Bob

 

[bettis1]

Larry,

Let this Bob add his appreciation to the last Bob. Thank you for your well thought out and stated comments. They remove much of the emotion and should quiet some of the rhetoric which always seems to accompany this topic when it is raised.

I hope you will continue to visit here and post with us often. As you can tell, we hunger for information such as you can provide.

Bob (another one)

 

[lw]

Mike, my windy missive above was a shotgun attempt to answer a barrage of personal emails I received, many covering the same topics. Kind of like trying to bat down a barrage of tennis balls coming at you.

There are a lot of misconceptions out in this great Country of ours as to the last 100 years of Bureau history; how Hoover and Tolson viewed things, internal operations, and much more.

Regardless, in reviewing this, I probably did not adequately answer your questions.

1. Regarding the destruction of the Magnums, I probably cannot adequately comment without seeing the destruction orders themselves. Anything else would be guessing. I know many are not happy with this destruction and I understand why. But I surmise that the process had a bit to do with storage problems, coupled with what future the gun had in the FBI.

I've had many a discussion with the Bureau Historian on a multitude of subjects and we do wish that many things had NOT occurred in the destruction process over the years with guns, artifacts and more. There probably isn't a department in the entire US who hasn't sat back with current members and said "I wish they didn't do that." But as I mentioned, it's also important to know the priorities of the times and the needs of the services, among many other things. (probably answers that many really don't want to hear.)

2. With regard to your question about the Government claim to the gun, and putting it on paper, the Bureau probably won't do this until all the facts are known as to where, and how, the gun left the Director's possession. (We may find that in records at some future date, I don't know.) But as I noted before, I doubt seriously they'll be any SWAT members arriving at anyone's door.

However, I should throw in here that I don't think the Bureau would be anyone's biggest headache on this. What may be larger mess is the possibility that, depending on certain facts,,(and I emphasize certain facts) would the legal heirs of Tolson or John Mohr be entitled to the gun because they were the respective heirs of Hoover's property?

Anything that the Bureau would put on paper today about this gun very well could impact a possible 3rd party civil situation in the future, but again, based upon variables we just don't know the answer to right now.

Hope this helps.
larry wack

 

[mikepriwer]

Larry

Thank you for these additional comments. This is as clear an answer as I could
hope for.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[lw]

Bob and Bob, thanks for your notes.

Mike, there's one more thing worth mentioning in regard to those Registered Magnums or any other the FBI guns. These regulations are binding on other agencies also.

My recollection, which I've confirmed with other Bureau firearms guys, is the Magnums and other revolvers were collected by the Bureau when we went to automatics. Fact was, revolver's were off limits; you can't carry one for all intents and purposes. We all underwent expedite training in the use of autos; a whole new ballgame.

The one important thing here is that the FBI is required to turn over to GSA all surplus property for possible distribution to other agencies, or GSA gives the "order to destroy" upon examining the paperwork as to what they will be receiving. This pertains to anything from guns to (you name it) of Government property. The registered magnums were given to GSA (as required) however GSA could not unload them on other Agencies. No one wanted them. The automatics were up and coming.

By law GSA can sell certain surplus Government items to the public but GUNS ARE NOT ALLOWED.

In reality, with the transition to autos, the Bureau did what they were required to do. Turn the surplus over to GSA. GSA could not unload them ....was not allowed to sell them...and as a result, they went to the burner.

The reason I wanted to mention this is that sometimes with these and other matters, what appears to be haphazard indiscriminate decisions on the part of the "brass" are really compliance issues and laws that none of us have control over.

As I mentioned, we weren't very happy with the way fate met these Magnums, but the choices we had were "zero" at best. GSA gets to make the last call on issues like this and in some instances the Attorney General has to step in.

cheers
larry wack

 

[RKmesa]

Larry:

I just want to add my thanks for your well thought out and articulate responses. Also, duly noted was your restraint when you could have taken offense at some of the hasty responses.

I echo the sentiments - Please keep posting!

Thanks,

 

[glypnir]

Yes, Larry, thanks for the comments.

It's a fact of life for almost everything as it gets old. It goes through an ugly stage. Nobody wants it.

It's not worth storing.

Thank God, otherwise we'd be neck deep in useless old crap. And nothing would be as rare as it is. What's the fun in that?


Now some things get uglier than others. For example, at any given age, I'm probably uglier than Cindy Crawford.

And I'm pretty sure that Registered Magnums have never been as ugly at any age as say, Lorcins.

But there's a curve where the good stuff still goes down and bottoms out.

I once stood next to a Pierce Arrow that had just been through a complete, down to the frame, restoration. The guy next to me said that he remembered working all day scrapping a very similar one. He got paid 50 cents for his labor. And he was happy to get it.

When you haven't got enough money for food, and it's not cool to drive an expensive car because lots of people don't have money for food, the expensive car is in trouble.

 

[jspick]

glypnir,

You have really said this well.

Remember when model A's and model T's were all the rage being restored and going up in value. Then the stock market crashed in 1987 and the A's and T's leveled out and started to decline then at the same time the factory muscle cars went up 300% over night.

I cashed in on that.

The muscle cars are pretty much leveled out at a price range that adjusts for inflation. The exception are the really rare ones like a Hemi Cuda Convertible. they wi8ll always go up.

Steam locomotive whistles are at that same stage the people who have ever heard a whistle on a steam locomotive are getting fewer and fewer and the demand is not as great so the price drops.

Sad to say that some day the the number of people who will pay a good price for a RM in any condition will drop off and the prices will drop. The NIB and LNIB examples should always hold thier value and appriciate. As does the special cars and other collectibles in like new condition.

John

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Has it been a whole year?

Holidaze are upon us so I thought I'd reach back in the closet and pull out this old chestnut.

How's J. Ed's exhibit progressing?

How the hunt for the six holed grail comin' along?

Do you have a CI list that you'd care to share for those that would like to send Christmas cards?

Seriously though, as I'm not much of a comedian, you make a good argument for wanting the piece in question.

I contacted the NYCPD Ballistics lab a while back, as they have several infamous handguns on display, and asked them for the serial numbers on the David Berkowitz CA .44 Bulldog. The nice gentleman in charge of the exhibit told me he couldn't share that information because it was an on going investigation. I replied that after 30 odd years there was nothing on going as to whether or not that pistol was the weapon of crime. He then told me that they wouldn't release the SN because it might lead to some party claiming ownership of the pistol.

Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[sw282]

siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

 

[sigp220.45]

On a related note - a couple of years ago I tried to track down all of the FBI M-1 Garands in an attempt to get them diverted to CMP. An overworked guy at the gun vault finally emailed me a document sent to all Principal Firearms Instructors (PFIs) demanding the return of all "Springfield rifles" to Quantico a year or so before. They all went into the chopper.

As Larry noted above, while these may be priceless classics to us, to somebody else they're the gun equivalent of an '86 Aries K-car - obsolete junk.

 

[jag312]

Concerning the value of Hoover's RM; I wouldn't pay ten cents for it. I would love to own Frank Hamer's Colt, I would love to own George Patton's Colt, I would love to own Tom Horn's Remington, and I would love to own the Colt that Gary Cooper carried in "High Noon", and that is because I have respect for these men. I have no respect for J. Edgar Hoover. I have nothing but contempt for him. I wouldn't want anything that once belonged to him, whether it is his Smith & Wesson or his favorite dress.

 

[29aholic]

Ah hell, one of these days someone will find #1 in a pawn shop cut to 4" with an Ed's bumper chrome job and a set of rubbers on it for $375. They will post a what is it thread on here with the typical questions "how old is it?" and "Can I shoot +P's in it?"

If #1 exists and you are reading this I will give $20,000 if it is as shipped, but you might have to take a Harley as a partial trade.

 

[29-1]

Ah hell, one of these days someone will find #1 in a pawn shop cut to 4" with an Ed's bumper chrome job and a set of rubbers on it for $375. They will post a what is it thread on here with the typical questions "how old is it?" and "Can I shoot +P's in it?"

If #1 exists and you are reading this I will give $20,000 if it is as shipped, but you might have to take a Harley as a partial trade.

Curtis, you'd be stealing it for 20k. I'd go 5 times that in a heart beat and still be getting a good deal.
Chuck

 

[seattleM29]

Concerning the value of Hoover's RM; I wouldn't pay ten cents for it. I would love to own Frank Hamer's Colt, I would love to own George Patton's Colt, I would love to own Tom Horn's Remington, and I would love to own the Colt that Gary Cooper carried in "High Noon", and that is because I have respect for these men. I have no respect for J. Edgar Hoover. I have nothing but contempt for him. I wouldn't want anything that once belonged to him, whether it is his Smith & Wesson or his favorite dress.

I have to agree with you on this. To ME Hoover was no more than a over inflated egotistical tyrant. I'd rather own Major Doug Wesson's handgun.

 

[29aholic]

I dont know, having it just for the fact it's #1 would be cool. As far as famous RM's I would much rather own #2 Phil Sharpe's gun as he was a major factor in the development of the 357 ctg.