Jack O'Connor Opinion
- Thread starter Skip Sackett
- Start date
I loved reading Jack O'Connor's articles, but it seemed to me that he overrated the .270 Winchester in his later years...........almost to the extent that nothing else was as good in his opinion.
I loved his stories about sheep hunting in Canada.
I loved his stories about sheep hunting in Canada.
FrankD45
Absent Comrade
John Ross
Absent Comrade
I knew them both, O'Connor not nearly so well as Keith. Keith worked many years as a guide, and witnessed many less-than-satisfactory cases of smaller bullets failing in less-than-ideal conditions. When Keith shot something, or when his client did, Keith wanted the animal to die.
O'Connor was a more polished writer, and tended to describe the beauty of taking a game animal with the perfect shot angle using a finely-tuned cartrige of modest recoil.
Keith wanted the animal to die, even if the only shot angle available was less than ideal.
BTW I knew Keith for almost a decade and shot with him. I know of no case where he exaggerated or shaded the facts in any way. I DO know that sometimes his editor(s) changed (out of ignorance) some of the relevant details of his articles, and it drove him crazy.
Also as an aside, a young woman I introduced to Jack O'Connor later referred to him as "That vile old man!"
Even Charlie Askins didn't elicit that kind of reaction from the women I knew...
O'Connor was a more polished writer, and tended to describe the beauty of taking a game animal with the perfect shot angle using a finely-tuned cartrige of modest recoil.
Keith wanted the animal to die, even if the only shot angle available was less than ideal.
BTW I knew Keith for almost a decade and shot with him. I know of no case where he exaggerated or shaded the facts in any way. I DO know that sometimes his editor(s) changed (out of ignorance) some of the relevant details of his articles, and it drove him crazy.
Also as an aside, a young woman I introduced to Jack O'Connor later referred to him as "That vile old man!"
Even Charlie Askins didn't elicit that kind of reaction from the women I knew...
Paul5388
US Veteran
John,
I suppose you don't have to be old enough to have watched the Cardinals play at Sportsman's Park on Grand Avenue, but being that old certainly increases one's chances of having met Keith and/or O'Connor.
It should come as no surprise that O'Connor was the more polished writer. After all, he was an English teacher!
There are also many who don't have a clue about how much Elmer actually wrote in the way of private communications and that he did it all on a manual typewriter with no "white-out". Typos were common, especially without time to go back and do the corrections needed before moving on to the next response.
The thing that strikes me as being extraordinary was Elmer's accessibility. He really didn't seem to have any reservations about people calling or writing and usually had time to devote to them. The comments I've heard have been along the lines of it being like talking to a grandfather/mentor, not a celebrity.
I suppose you don't have to be old enough to have watched the Cardinals play at Sportsman's Park on Grand Avenue, but being that old certainly increases one's chances of having met Keith and/or O'Connor.
It should come as no surprise that O'Connor was the more polished writer. After all, he was an English teacher!
There are also many who don't have a clue about how much Elmer actually wrote in the way of private communications and that he did it all on a manual typewriter with no "white-out". Typos were common, especially without time to go back and do the corrections needed before moving on to the next response.
The thing that strikes me as being extraordinary was Elmer's accessibility. He really didn't seem to have any reservations about people calling or writing and usually had time to devote to them. The comments I've heard have been along the lines of it being like talking to a grandfather/mentor, not a celebrity.
sixshot
Member
In my early years I very much enjoyed Jack O'Connor's articles & took my first 6 elk with a 270 using 130 gr Hornady slugs. Later in life he wrote a article about sheep hunting in Mexico & explained that there were 2 ways to aquire a sheep tag, that was to spend a great deal of money & wait your turn or.....you could get one quite easy if you knew the RIGHT people...........(government) he stated that HE knew the right people & could always get a sheep tag, I never liked him after that!
In the early 70's I started stopping in at Elmer Keith's place to buy a book & visit for a few minutes, I did this several times over the next 6-7 years, my wife would go with me & visit with Lorraine & Elmer would take me out back to his trophy room, he only had 2 animals in the house, a sheep & a sable. In the trophy room out back was where he did his writing, etc. lots & lots of animals, some were very old skull mounts. He was always very polite & patient, I only wish I would have been able to shoot with him a few times.
Ross Seyfried wrote once that the best shot he ever knew with all 3 guns, rifle, handgun & shotgun was Elmer Keith. Pretty good endorsement!
This is one of the books I bought from Elmer.
This is his book Safari, it is very rare as only a few copies surivived a flood.
Dick
In the early 70's I started stopping in at Elmer Keith's place to buy a book & visit for a few minutes, I did this several times over the next 6-7 years, my wife would go with me & visit with Lorraine & Elmer would take me out back to his trophy room, he only had 2 animals in the house, a sheep & a sable. In the trophy room out back was where he did his writing, etc. lots & lots of animals, some were very old skull mounts. He was always very polite & patient, I only wish I would have been able to shoot with him a few times.
Ross Seyfried wrote once that the best shot he ever knew with all 3 guns, rifle, handgun & shotgun was Elmer Keith. Pretty good endorsement!
This is one of the books I bought from Elmer.
This is his book Safari, it is very rare as only a few copies surivived a flood.
Dick
canoe on the yukon
Member
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I suppose that I opened the gate in this thread for discussing Keith.I did not do it out of malice towards the man.I have a copy of sixguns and it was his writing that inspired me to begin shooting and handloading for the 44 magnum which is my favorite to this day.
My reason for bringing him into a thread about O'Conner was the reason for their feud.I have no doubt that Keith was likeable to many.As an aside,I have known a great many people in my life who were extremely likeable but yet were reckless in their dealing with facts.
The comments that Keith was not known to this person or that to ever tell falsehoods is pretty easy to dispute.Keith was famous for telling stories that were grossly inaccurate in order to advance his theory about anything.
Nitpicking over this or that among rifle calibers is boorish and shallow in my estimation and so I don't have any intention of opening that door but I can give a couple of examples.
In one story,Keith related how a medium size black bear was treed and the hunters were armed with lowly rifles of less than .338 caliber.As I recall,one was a 300 weatherby and the other a 270 winchester,in his telling.The bear was shot about 8 times or so without any apparent effect at all.He didn't even seem to notice until by chance one of the shots from the 300 weatherby just happened to hit his spine.It was only then that the bear fell and died.
In another story,a mountain sheep had been hit with a lowly 7 mm rifle and the sheep was hit several times through the lungs with no effect whatsoever.The guide who was present at the event stated later that the sheep was hit once,dropped dead and Keith was actually several miles away at the time.
I could go on but what's the point?If another thread about Keith ever starts and I add anything,I will not bring any of this up.I only brought it up to begin with because I thought it was relevant about O'Conner.
I don't put any man on a pedestal which certainly includes O'Conner.All human beings have flaws....period.
My reason for bringing him into a thread about O'Conner was the reason for their feud.I have no doubt that Keith was likeable to many.As an aside,I have known a great many people in my life who were extremely likeable but yet were reckless in their dealing with facts.
The comments that Keith was not known to this person or that to ever tell falsehoods is pretty easy to dispute.Keith was famous for telling stories that were grossly inaccurate in order to advance his theory about anything.
Nitpicking over this or that among rifle calibers is boorish and shallow in my estimation and so I don't have any intention of opening that door but I can give a couple of examples.
In one story,Keith related how a medium size black bear was treed and the hunters were armed with lowly rifles of less than .338 caliber.As I recall,one was a 300 weatherby and the other a 270 winchester,in his telling.The bear was shot about 8 times or so without any apparent effect at all.He didn't even seem to notice until by chance one of the shots from the 300 weatherby just happened to hit his spine.It was only then that the bear fell and died.
In another story,a mountain sheep had been hit with a lowly 7 mm rifle and the sheep was hit several times through the lungs with no effect whatsoever.The guide who was present at the event stated later that the sheep was hit once,dropped dead and Keith was actually several miles away at the time.
I could go on but what's the point?If another thread about Keith ever starts and I add anything,I will not bring any of this up.I only brought it up to begin with because I thought it was relevant about O'Conner.
I don't put any man on a pedestal which certainly includes O'Conner.All human beings have flaws....period.
Out in the cabin I saw that typewriter and wondered at IT. HEE HEE
Paul5388
US Veteran
Not to dispute anything, but just to question the veracity of one man's word against another man's word.
I would think that part of the problem of believing Elmer did what he did is due to very few being able to duplicate what he did.
As already stated, he was more than proficient with handgun, rifle and shotgun and was active at one time in competitive shooting. I just don't think O'Connor had credentials that even remotely approached Elmer's.
Here's John Barsness' latest article on 24 Hour Campfire.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...ters/April_2009.html
While it isn't about the .270 specifically, it is about multiple hits to no seeming effect. This quote may also have a bearing on the matter of multiple hits.
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Brad Crawford, a friend of mine and fellow attorney who died several years ago (tragically young) had met Elmer Keith while on a hunting trip in Idaho. He and his hunting buddy evidently just drove up to Mr. Keith's home unannounced, and Elmer met them at the door, wearing one of his 4" Model 29s and his big hat. After introductions, Brad and his buddy were invited in and spent a couple of hours "just visiting" with Elmer. Accessible, indeed!
OP
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
I know it is extremely hard to do. I hope that when i am dead and gone that folks don't do it when they think about me or talk about me.
What is it?
Compare me to someone else.
I know it is human nature to do so, some of us have spent a good deal of our lifetime trying to eradicate the affects of our flawed human nature. If I live to be 100, I will have only scratched the surface, to be sure, BUT........
I don't want someone to say: "He was pretty good at such and such but so and so was better." Granted, I'm not going to make it to the "famous" state, to be sure.
I started this thread because I had just read a technical article written by Jack. I found it very easy to read and informative. It was also noted by me that he was a very intelligent individual. Anyone that can take deep truths and "put them on the bottom shelf for the kiddies" is an extremely smart individual.
You can read it too if you happen to have a Speer #6 laying around. That is what the next thread was going to be about, "How much credence would you put on what Jack O'Connor had to say about PRESSURE?" or something to that effect.
Like I said, I found it extremely informative and easy reading and to the point with a smidge of humor thrown in to sweeten the pot.
I am going to have to see if I can make digital copies of it and post it on the web for reference.
OK, The cat is out of the bag. It really has to do with what tools/information can a "back yard" hand-loader use to determine pressure.
Read the article, you'll be surprised. I wish we had common sense like that writing for the gun rags currently!
What is it?
Compare me to someone else.
I know it is human nature to do so, some of us have spent a good deal of our lifetime trying to eradicate the affects of our flawed human nature. If I live to be 100, I will have only scratched the surface, to be sure, BUT........
I don't want someone to say: "He was pretty good at such and such but so and so was better." Granted, I'm not going to make it to the "famous" state, to be sure.
I started this thread because I had just read a technical article written by Jack. I found it very easy to read and informative. It was also noted by me that he was a very intelligent individual. Anyone that can take deep truths and "put them on the bottom shelf for the kiddies" is an extremely smart individual.
You can read it too if you happen to have a Speer #6 laying around. That is what the next thread was going to be about, "How much credence would you put on what Jack O'Connor had to say about PRESSURE?" or something to that effect.
Like I said, I found it extremely informative and easy reading and to the point with a smidge of humor thrown in to sweeten the pot.
I am going to have to see if I can make digital copies of it and post it on the web for reference.
OK, The cat is out of the bag. It really has to do with what tools/information can a "back yard" hand-loader use to determine pressure.
Read the article, you'll be surprised. I wish we had common sense like that writing for the gun rags currently!
Paul5388
US Veteran
Skip,
If you want to, you can send me a jpg of it and I'll post it on the "reloading manuals" section of my web page.
BTW, I knew what you were talking about in your email, but I forgot what I had said.
If you want to, you can send me a jpg of it and I'll post it on the "reloading manuals" section of my web page.
BTW, I knew what you were talking about in your email, but I forgot what I had said.
David Sinko
Member
As I see it, O'Connor was astute enough to realize that far more hunters would be hunting with a .270 Winchester than, say, a .333 OKH and he was articulate enough to elaborate on the theory that "lighter bullet at higher velocity is better" knowing full well that he had an immediate audience. But back before you had the premium bullets that we have today, you needed caliber and bullet weight to get the job done. Nowadays the .270 is a much better cartridge considering all the superior bullets that we have, but I'll never believe it was all that O'Connor made it out to be.
Dave Sinko
Dave Sinko
O'Connor's pressure article first appeared in the Speer #4 manual published in'59. At that time it was credited as being reprinted from the June '56 OL.
Jack was given credit in the Speer manuals from #1 in '54. I hope most of you realize that he lived "just minutes away" from the Speer facilities and was a frequent hunting partner of Vernon Speer. He often wrote that he utilized their facilities on numerous occasions.
Good shooting.
Jack was given credit in the Speer manuals from #1 in '54. I hope most of you realize that he lived "just minutes away" from the Speer facilities and was a frequent hunting partner of Vernon Speer. He often wrote that he utilized their facilities on numerous occasions.
Good shooting.
Smilin-buddha
Member
Its amazing how many good gun writers are out there.
mikeruns
Member
I recommend that folks just purchase a bunch of books by both men and decide for yourselves....I own most of their books collectively and enjoyed all of them. I enjoy also the fact that people refer to Jack in reference to the .270 like this is all he was known for and although it is true that he helped to make it wildly popular (still today), he admitted that the 30-06 was an all around more versatile and useful cartridge and that he also esteemed the 7 mm Rem mag in high regard as did he the same for the .375 H&H and .416 as well as the .338 and used them all effectively on African dangerous game and plains game...both he and his wife were fantastic shots on game and shot running jack rabbits for practice in the off seasons....he loved a rifle and shotgun and was a fan of the handgun and owned several but wasn't so much an enthusiast of them as he was for the long guns....
I loved reading Elmer Keith's stories about shooting caribou at a distance with the 1st two S&W 4" model 57 .41 mags which were gifted him...his stories of long shots with the .45 Colt in his early days, his use of the .280 and .285 Dubiel/OKH, his reviews on leather and Buck knives, Ruana Knives, boots and hunting/outdoors' clothes and gear....
I would 1st recommend by Elmer, "Sixguns" and "Hell I was there"...
And Jack, "The Hunting Rifle" and "The Rifle Book" and "Jack O'Conner"
All worthy and entertaining and they have great value to me as I grew up in central Montana as a 4th gen kid born and raised there...cheers...
I loved reading Elmer Keith's stories about shooting caribou at a distance with the 1st two S&W 4" model 57 .41 mags which were gifted him...his stories of long shots with the .45 Colt in his early days, his use of the .280 and .285 Dubiel/OKH, his reviews on leather and Buck knives, Ruana Knives, boots and hunting/outdoors' clothes and gear....
I would 1st recommend by Elmer, "Sixguns" and "Hell I was there"...
And Jack, "The Hunting Rifle" and "The Rifle Book" and "Jack O'Conner"
All worthy and entertaining and they have great value to me as I grew up in central Montana as a 4th gen kid born and raised there...cheers...
Scharfschuetzer
Member
I really enjoyed reading Jack O'Conner's musings in Outdoor life in my youth. My first hardbound books on shooting were authored by him too and are still in my library.
Thomas M. Black
Member
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I’ve always been a huge fan of JOC. Two years ago I was fortunate enough to visit the JOC Center in Lewiston. It was well worth it. I also stopped by Lolo’s Gun Shop. It opened in 1954 and JOC used to hang out there. It’s a neat old school shop.
Tom
Tom
In my younger days I read every article I could find from Jack, and he is the reason that I bought a Win. M70 in .270 caliber in the 60's when I was in the Navy over seas, to bring back home to hunt with.
His favorite 130 gr bullet load was pushed with 49 grs of IMR 4064 and it turned out to be my most accurate load in my rifle, even though 4350 & 4831 did get higher fps in my testings.
He also liked the heavy 150 gr for Elk hunting with a full load of 4831 but my rifle did not do well with this bullet but it did very well with the 140 gr Nosler Accubond at 2940 fps with IMR4831.
Back then they also had a large 170 gr JRN lead tip for Moose but I don't think this bullet is still around today but it did have major ft/lbs that did the job at close range.
He was a great writer & hunter that put a smile on my face.
His favorite 130 gr bullet load was pushed with 49 grs of IMR 4064 and it turned out to be my most accurate load in my rifle, even though 4350 & 4831 did get higher fps in my testings.
He also liked the heavy 150 gr for Elk hunting with a full load of 4831 but my rifle did not do well with this bullet but it did very well with the 140 gr Nosler Accubond at 2940 fps with IMR4831.
Back then they also had a large 170 gr JRN lead tip for Moose but I don't think this bullet is still around today but it did have major ft/lbs that did the job at close range.
He was a great writer & hunter that put a smile on my face.
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