JHP's always more accurate than lead.

[model14]

A jacketed bullet (at least XTP's, which is all I use), will most always shoot more accurate than a lead bullet at any distance, regardless of the powder or load. This has been my experience after a lot of rounds, both 50 ft indoors and 25, 50 and 100 yds outdoors. In addition to different hard cast bullets, I have also proven this out with HDY swaged lead bullets (supposedly the best for accurate shooting to 50 yards). These are bench rest findings, not off-hand, so I have been able to somewhat scientifically make this statement with my 686 (6") and 629 (8"). I would like to hear what your experience has been.

P.S. This was also true for my Kimber .45 ACP out to 50 yards with iron sights. I would shoot 240 Hdy SWC's and then using the exact same powder and load, shoot 240 XTP's and it was a world of difference for the better. Never could understand it but always the case. I traded the Kimber for the 629.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well,
Sorry for your luck. I get excellent accuracy from all of my bullets, cast, plated or jacketed from all of my handguns.

One of the reasons is though, I cast my own bullets and they are tailor made for my firearms.

If you are being held captive by having to purchase your bullets then your statement is understandable. Again, sorry for you.

There is nothing more gratifying than casting your own bullets and having them shoot one hole groups at normal handgun distances. I have even had great results with my 44mag cast bullets from a carbine out to 100yards.

As in most cases, generalities are seldom completely true. Your observations certainly have not been mine. As accurate? Sure, plated bullets are as accurate as mine. I judge them by what I get with my homecast lot!

 

[ACP230]

I haven't noticed much difference between lead and jacketed bullets and I've shot both.

When I shot 2700 Bullseye matches I used LSWC all the time and they shot well at 50, as well as on the shortline.

I shot Hunter's Pistol Silhouette with LSWC reloads in .38 and .357. They held up out to 100 meters.

 

[Andy Griffith]

Originally posted by ACP230:
I haven't noticed much difference between lead and jacketed bullets and I've shot both.

I have to disagree- I've noticed a big difference between jacketed and cast.

The difference is $$$$$!

 

[model14]

ACP230,
Did you ever try shooting bullseye with jacketed bullets? If so, what were the results?

 

[pownal55]

speer swaged lswc in 38,357, and 44. pushed at about 850fps is always accurate in my guns.

 

[Skip Sackett]

The difference is $$$$$!

Amen, Brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My free wheel weights translate into bullets that cost nothing other than my time. I've been told I am worthless by folks before so, my time must be cheap too!

If you pay $1/lb and cast 158gr LSWC the price is $0.022571428571428571428571428571429 each. Now how long would it take for you to recoup $200 for a casting setup with one mold at that rate? That comes to $11 p/100. No shipping or handling, you can get them any time you want or need them, with just a little change in the alloy you can have them run at magnum velocities or 650fps wonders.

@ $30 p/500 that is a savings of $19 p/500. Do that twice and you have your mold paid for. Do it three times again and you have your melting pot paid for. I'm trying real hard to see the problem here. Can't get one hole groups @ 100 yards? Get a rifle bullet mold and go for it!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have to disagree with you, lead bullets are every bit as accurate as jacketed ones, if not more accurate.

Are you using the same powder for both Jacketed and lead bullets? A lot of the time I use different powders for lead bullets because they react differently than jacketed bullets to some powders. As an example, for some .38 Special +P rounds I make I use Longshot for jacketed bullets but I use HS-6 for lead. Longshot is a good powder but doesn't deliver good accuracy with lead bullets in a .38 Special whereas HS-6 does.

 

[model14]

ArchAngelCD
Your statement is as generalized as mine

In my case, with my guns, it is not true that lead is more accurate than jacketed. In fact, in my case, the opposite is true. I have done a lot of testing with .38, .357, and .44, trying all of the "accurate" lead loads. Have you actually compared the two and found that lead is more accurate than jacketed from your guns or is that statement based on someone else saying so? Not trying to stir up trouble here but please, let's keep this on a "actually observed" level. Thanks.

 

[OKFC05]

let's keep this on a "actually observed" level

I observe that my most accurate load is a home cast 148gr Lee TL unsized over 3 gr of HP38.

It has produced several all X ring possibles shooting bullseye practice, well under 1" off a rest consistently at 25 yd and 1 1/2' at 50yd. This from several model 14s and 15s.

I also observe that I use plated bullets for my IDPA competition not because they are more accurate, but because I don't have to look through lube smoke in rapid fire.

I also observe that the 158gr XTP I load over a max charge of 296 and shoot out of a scoped 8" 686 will shoot into 4" at 100yards all day, any day.
But so will my .358 sized hard-cast 158gr SWC.

I shot a Maryland Gun Works custom Ruger Redhawk that the new owner was having trouble keeping on the paper. With 240gr SWC loads supplied by MGW, I made a single ragged hole at 25yd. He decided the gun and load were fine and started learning how to shoot his superb revolver.

I conjecture that if you can't get lead bullets to shoot out of your guns, you may need to get ALL the copper out of the barrels before shooting lead bullets, or perhaps you need bullets better sized for your guns. Many "inaccurate" barrels are simply coated with copper.

 

[haggis]

Originally posted by model14:
I would shoot 240 Hdy SWC's and then using the exact same powder and load, shoot 240 XTP's and it was a world of difference for the better.

Those are entirely different loads. It generally takes more powder to get the same velocity with a jacketed bullet than for a similar weight cast bullet. I don't know how that would affect accuracy in your case, but I would be suprised if they had been the same. As an example for .45ACP, a 230 RNL over 4.4 grains of Titegroup gives the same velocity as 4.8 grains of TG with a 230 FMJ. But the RNL load lies at the minimum for velocity standard deviation vs. powder charge, while the FMJ is above from its minimum. That difference shows up at 25 yards off sandbags as well. So relative accuracy depends on bullet construction, bullet weight, powder type, powder charge, rifling type and depth, and a host of other things. For your gun, bullets, and loads, you came to one conclusion. It doesn't surprise me that someone else got different results. Who's right? Nobody, and everybody, until all the testing conditions are exactly the same, and even then, who knows?

Buck

 

[model14]

Originally posted by OKFC05:

I also observe that the 158gr XTP I load over a max charge of 296 and shoot out of a scoped 8" 686 will shoot into 4" at 100yards all day, any day.
But so will my .358 sized hard-cast 158gr SWC.

I conjecture that if you can't get lead bullets to shoot out of your guns, you may need to get ALL the copper out of the barrels before shooting lead bullets, or perhaps you need bullets better sized for your guns. Many "inaccurate" barrels are simply coated with copper.

If all you are getting out of your scoped 8" 686 is 4" groups, you and I are talking apples and oranges. With the exact setup as you, except using a 6" barrel, I routinely shoot inside 3" and, as I know you noted in one of my posts, I have come very close to 2", on occasion. My attempts at using 148 grain hard cast .358" SWC's at 100 yards has frequently been inside 4", but that is not good accuracy for a S&W 686. Because my costs for the XTP's is so high, I am trying to use cast bullets effectively, but have been unable to do so, even at 25 yards. What is your powder and load for your 100 yard cast setup? I will give it a try.

I clean my guns after every shooting session, there is no copper coating in the barrels.

I appreciate the results you are getting, but they don't meet my requirements.

 

[Emerson]

In rifles cast bullets will not shoot as well as jacketed bullets.

In revolvers, I haven't seen any difference.

 

[keppelj]

M14, to optimize each bullet you need to load it specifically for it's characteristics. And then test in a specific gun only. Jacketed, plated and lead loads for a given weight bullet will all be different. I think too, that if you really want to objectify your testing, you ought to buy yourself a mechanical rest like the ransom rest. You need also to test three times each of the best performing grain weights to prove your load.

 

[Gatofeo]

Each gun is an individual.
It is folly to state that jacketed bullets are more accurate than lead, or that jacketed bullets are always more accurate than lead bullets in rifles.
Too often, the problem with inaccuracy in lead bullets is due to barrel fouling.
Firing jacketed bullets leaves a relatively hard, copper fouling in the rifling grooves. If this fouling is not removed, it can affect ability of a lead bullet to get a good seal (obturation) in the bore.
If you are going to shoot lead bullets, it behooves you to remove ALL fouling.
The "acid test" to determine if all fouling is removed from your barrel is to clean it thoroughly, then leave a thin coat of Hoppes No. 9 gun solvent in the barrel.
After a few days, push a clean patch through.
If you see green on the patch, it's copper or bronze.
Black, it's lead or powder fouling.
Reapply a thin layer of Hoppes No. 9.
Do this until a clean patch pushed through shows no color.
Degrease the barrel with a few patches damp with Ronson lighter fluid.
Now, you're ready to shoot lead bullets under the best circumstances.
I use lead bullets, commercial or cast by myself, in all my revolvers. I use them frequently in my semi-auto handguns too, especially .380, 9mm and .45 ACP.
I regard jacketed bullets in revolvers as being largely superfulous, unless you need a light bullet at maximum velocity for shoot varmints.
For target and big game, a properly designed lead bullet (of proper alloy, diameter and lubrication, of course) will match or exceed any jacketed bullet.
Lead bullets may also be driven to a higher velocity and lower pressure.
Alas, too many handgun shooters think that lead bullets are worthless.
They're cheaper, just as accurate as jacketed bullets (when cast of the proper alloy and diameter), can be driven faster than jacekted bullets and cause far less wear than jacketed bullets.

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, three guns is not enough to generalize from. All you can conclude from your observations is that those specific three guns, with the specific loads you tried, seem to be most accurate with XTPs. And that's fine. Given how widely guns of the same model and make can differ, that's all any of us can do.

FWIW, if I had a load that provided the kind of accuracy you describe, I'd be making offerings to the Pistol Gods rather than fiddling around with different recipes or arguing about what works in other people's guns.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[DonD]

Originally posted by Ron H.:
Sir, three guns is not enough to generalize from. All you can conclude from your observations is that those specific three guns, with the specific loads you tried, seem to be most accurate with XTPs. And that's fine. Given how widely guns of the same model and make can differ, that's all any of us can do.

FWIW, if I had a load that provided the kind of accuracy you describe, I'd be making offerings to the Pistol Gods rather than fiddling around with different recipes or arguing about what works in other people's guns.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

+several on that. It's way too small a sample size to be valid.

I think it's reasonable to say that superb shooting has been accomplished by the use of lead and jacketed slugs.

It is true that jacketed slugs can be pushed to higher velocites than can lead or gas checked lead slugs. Don

 

[Skip Sackett]

I was thinking of something else we have left out of the equation, ballistic coefficient. The "BC" of a full WC may make it difficult to get it to shoot accurately at 100 yards, which for some reason seems to be the object of the OP. Another thing is that shooting them with light loads, as they were designed to be shot, my not get them stabilized enough to be accurate at that distance either.

Not only is it too small of a sample but too many variables to be processed definitively. There are other lead bullets with better BC, I wonder if he has tried those. LRN, LTC are a couple that come to mind. The 173gr Elmer Keith bullet might be a good performer at that distance too, if driven to the correct velocity.

Here is a post from lbtmoulds.com. It might be worth reading before such a generalized statement is made. The title of the thread assumes that no one has achieved better accuracy with lead. In order to state that accurately, one would have to know that NO ONE has ever had it the opposite way. I would disagree.

JACKETED PERFORMANCE WITH CAST BULLETS
By Veral Smith


This illustrated booklet is recommended reading for all bullet casters, especially beginners, but even for those with 40 years experience. It has information about cast bullets which you won’t find anywhere else, and covers every important factor about making and shooting lead bullets. It explains how to do it, the scientific answer to things that can go wrong, why, and how to correct any problem. Has Veral's new formula on killing power which dispels the other theories and myths (unscientific and unprovable notions) relative to killing power, and explains what actually makes a bullet kill. You’ll know and can prove the whole book is fact, and learn that the author despises theory, on anything!

It's like an atheist saying that he KNOWS there is no God. Someone needs to ask him if he knows everything. If he is honest, he would have to say no. Then the question needs to be asked; "Is it possible that in that section of knowledge you don't have, that there is a proof, solid and verifiable, and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is a God?" Again, if he is honest, he would have to say, yes, it is possible seeing I don't know everything. They could say that they haven't seen the proof and be quite correct, but to say that there was none is totally incorrect.

Same as this: "Jacketed bullets are ALWAYS more accurate than lead." In order to say that and be correct, one would have to know that NO ONE has ever had it the other way.

FWIW

 

[model14]

Thanks for everyones input on the subject. I have learned a lot and have a lot to consider. You have convinced me to keep trying for better lead accuracy. I like long range bench rest shooting; it's just my thing

It certainly points out very quickly any errors in technique, cartridge selection, and gun inaccuracy, that can't be seen at 25 yards. That cloverleaf at 25, becomes a splatter at 100. Try it if you haven't before. It is challenging and fun.

 

[Emerson]

Jacketed bullets are more accurate in rifles than cast bullets.......If you don't believe me go to a benchrest match.