JHP's always more accurate than lead.

[NKJ nut]

Skip, you are right. ALWAYS, takes in a lot of territory. It might be better to say something like: "so far jacketed hollow points have proven more accurate than lead".

I have machine rest accuracy tested some 45 caliber 200 gr. bullets in a 45 acp. I found at the time that the 200 gr. cast bullets that I personally cast, were equal in accuracy to the Hornady XTP'S. They were more accurate than other jacketed bullets I tested. These results may be a bit dated because now there are newer bullets on the market, that may be just as good as the XTP's and the 200 gr. cast bullets, that were the top accuracy getters in my test.

Bullets with little or no attention payed to proper hardness, proper lube and sized to correctly fit the bore of the gun they will be shot in, may yield far different results than mine.

 

[Andy Griffith]

I don't have anything else to add, but...

Don't forget that there are many more things that will affect accuracy that has nothing to do with the bullet itself- throat diameter, forcing cone angles, muzzle crown issues, fouled rifling, etc.

Of course, jacketed or lead bullets may perform differently depending on any of the above causes.

 

[NKJ nut]

Originally posted by Andy Griffith:
I don't have anything else to add, but...

Don't forget that there are many more things that will affect accuracy that has nothing to do with the bullet itself- throat diameter, forcing cone angles, muzzle crown issues, fouled rifling, etc.

Of course, jacketed or lead bullets may perform differently depending on any of the above causes.

Absolutely true.

 

[Dale53]

Accuracy is relative. That is a fact.

Now, my schuetzen rifle is a bona-fide ½ minute rifle. That is, it will shoot ½ inch groups at 100 yards on demand. It uses plain base lead bullets. Now, my bench rest heavy varmit rifle will beat that, on demand, with jacketed bullets. So what? One is for one use and one is for the other.

My auto pistols and revolvers have been used against the best shooters in the world (I've won some and lost more). I use cast lead bullets almost EXCLUSIVELY. My guns and loads are competitive with those cast bullets. My losses have ALWAYS been MY problem, not my equipment. These have been proven time after time with the Ransom Rest. I shoot 25, 50, and 100 yards. I have, on occasion, shot to two hundred yards but don't do that often as my home range is limited to 100 yards.

Jacketed bullets can be VERY good, but they are no panacea. They don't all shoot well, and they ALL cost LOTS of money.

I enjoy casting and reloading and consider that part of the sport.

Thie is another "Ford or Chevrolet" argument, IMHO.

A famous playright stated, "Comparisons are odious".... I pretty much agree with him

, but no disrespect is intended.

Dale53

 

[Emerson]

Dale - Of course you are correct, and I should I have stated more clearly the point I was attempting to make.

Accuracy IS relative.

The accuracy that can be achieved using the best cast bullets is not even close to the accuracy that can be achieved with the best jacketed bullets.

I should have made myself more clear.

Best Regards

I

 

[canoe on the yukon]

I don't use pure lead swaged bullets for anything so will only address cast and jacketed.

I have had excellent,mediocre and poor accuracy with both.It all depends.In my opinion,it's apples vs. oranges.Since I no longer shoot any low velocity rifle loads,I use only jacketed bullets in rifles.In pistols,I use more cast bullets because they're cheaper and do just as well for practice,etc.Many prefer cast bullets for all use in pistols but I personally choose jacketed for most serious use.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

model14,
I'll be a little kinder to you than you were to me. I don't feel you should have assumed I was giving you information that I read somewhere instead of what I've personally experienced.

I don't just throw something together and shoot it. I am extremely analytical with me reloading, sometimes to a fault. I will test loads with 0.1gr weight differences, with several different powders and I test everything over a Chrono. I won't go into the rest because it's boring, my point is I am definitely speaking "on a actually observed level." (I also shoot a S&W M686)

Good luck finding the load you like to shoot and is accurate in your guns. Last point, just because you are having trouble building accurate lead loads doesn't give you the right to disparage my opinion.

 

[Andy Griffith]

Originally posted by Emerson:

The accuracy that can be achieved using the best cast bullets is not even close to the accuracy that can be achieved with the best jacketed bullets.

I physically can't see how this is possible, if the bullets are used within their limitations.
Of course, this may be the case with prior experience, and I completely understand that.

Considering I've seen some nearly one hole groups shot at a cast bullet match at 100yds, I have I very hard time believing the above statement.

I do understand that swaging is the best way to go if you are a top-tier competitor using unjacketed bullets because the process cuts down on the chance of an air pocket. Of course, if each cast bullet is weighed, it is accomplished.

Also, I've seen a good number of "junk" jacketed bullets put out by the various known manufacturers of components- meaning inconsistent weights, jacket material cut off at different lengths, bullets completely deformed, split jackets, etc. Don't forget about the "GIGO" principle.

It's been at least five years since I bought a jacketed bullet to reload. Now, I'm a newbie at casting- always purchased cast bullets from many different sources in the past, but I finally had a friend show me how to do it and the demonstration finally allowed me to realize that I didn't have to be some sort of "alchemist" and check the signs of the Zodiac to cast lead, as I had previously thought.

The point of this whole thread is, if I am correct, is to open shooters minds to the wonderful world of casting and using cast bullets. Not only do cast bullets offer an exciting and thought provoking side to reloading, it is also a more efficient way to stretch the finite amount of cash we get to spend on our hobby.

If a person only sticks with jacketed bullets, and it is fine if he does, he will miss out on a whole other aspect of the shooting sports. I also believe that learning to cast is knowledge, and knowledge, as the old trite expression goes, is power. Shooters knowing how to use, load, and cast, swage or even machine their own projectiles is very important in this sport and to the legacy that we, as shooters will pass on to others following our example.

I've said enough, and that is the public service announcement for the day.

 

[Skip Sackett]

disparage

There you go ag'in Tony, usin' them all fired up big words an' all. Have to keep lookin' 'em up on da marryam-webstre dikshunary website, fer cryin' out loud! Gettin' an edjumaction here on the Smitty forum! Who'd a thunk it!

I have tried some of Tony's load data and can vouch for it being accurate. We had some conversations WAY back about +P 38 loads and he talked me into buying a can of HS-6 just to try. He is a top notch handloader and I respect his opinion a lot.

 

[Emerson]

Andy - Let me be perfectly clear.....I am not at all disparaging cast bullets. I shootem by the boatloads. However, I shoot em in my handguns. If I were going to be shooting in benchrest competition I wouldn't have a prayer.

Anyone who has not witnessed an NBRSA benchrest match would likely be awestruck if they saw the accuracy potential of benchrest rifles and the best quality jacketed bullets. Benchrest competitors REGULARLY shoot 5-shot groups that measure less than .200 larger than a single bullethole, and will often shoot groups smaller than .100 than a single bullethole. That type of accuracy cannot be regularly achieved with cast bullets.

Cast bullets are in my opinion the absolute BEST choice for shooting in my handguns however.

Best Regards

Emerson

 

[Skip Sackett]

Emerson,
I think you are missing the point of the OP. HE is stating that jacketed bullets are more accurate in his HANDGUNS at 100 yards not in his rifle.

We all know that lead bullets leave something to be desired at velocities over 2000fps. That doesn't mean that they aren't tactically accurate for doing what a handgun was designed to do, most, close order work.

I have, my sons and I that is, have shot clay pigeons on the bank of the 100 yard range with our M686s before, using lead bullets, with great success. I would suppose that is accurate enough for open sighted pistols at that distance, wouldn't you? We have done it, it doesn't mean that lead bullets are more accurate than jacketed. It just means on that day, at that range, with that sun, with those two hooligans, with those clay pigeons, with our handguns, we had a lot of fun shooting, period.

Anything more or less that is taken away from that outing and phrased like you did, or the original poster for that matter is ludicrous.

Here are some statements that hold water: "Generally, in handguns, at standard distances, lead bullets provide adequate accuracy for most shooters. Exceptions would be due to several improper situations, mostly fit, hardness or lube issues."

"In benchrest rifle matches, jacketed bullets are used almost exclusively."

Now, from what Dale says, his Schuetzen Rifle seems to shoot that well with lead bullets at that distance. Here is what I am going to take from this whole discussion; "Some folks are able to achieve things others don't seem to be able to, more power to them. In anything done with human hands there are generally exceptions to the rule."

 

[Emerson]

Agreed.........

 

[Andy Griffith]

Sorry, I had some errands to run before returning to this thread.

I second!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thank you for the kind words Skip. (and I knew you would like HS-6 once you tried it!! LOL)