K-Frame .357 Magnum

[Naby]

Unless I have overlooked something (not unlikely) it appears that my choices for a current production Smith and Wesson .357 are either J, L, or N-Frames. Is that correct? I believe from reading on here that S&W used to make 6 shot K-Frame .357's, is that true? What are some models with 3-4" barrels, stainless or blued doesn't matter? Are there any non-steel K-Frames?

I carry a J-Frame with a 1-7/8" barrel but I've been looking for something a little larger when clothing and confort allows it. The 2-3" barrel J-Frames aren't much in the way of an improvement and it seems the only other option is to go to the 686 L-Frame which is too big and heavy for me to carry. I'm looking for something in the middle if such a thing exists.

Thanks for the help.

 

[stantheman86]

The K-frame .357's were dropped in 2003. I have a 66-7 made in 2003 and it was one of the last production runs of the legendary Model 66.

It was said that S&W got tired of servicing loose K-frame .357's and that shooters didn't get the whole ".38 for training, .357 for carry" concept So they dropped them.

 

[P&R Fan]

S&W made K-Frame .357 Magnums from 1955 when the original Combat Magnum (Later named the M19) was introduced until just a few years ago when they stopped making K-Frame .357s.
The models were, in numerical order, the M13, a blued or nickel fixed sight version of the Military and Police line. Barrel lengths were 3' or 4". The aforementioned M19, blued or nickel Combat Magnum with adjustable sights, barrel lengths 2 1/2", 3" (kinda rare) 4", and 6". The M65, the Stainless version of the M13, and the M66, a Stainless version of the M19.
These are still readily available on the used gun market and make great carry guns. They are some of my favorites. If you plan to shoot A LOT of heavy .357 Magnums in them, they will probably need service at some point. This is actually the reason they came out with the stronger L-Frame.
They are very interesting revolvers, and some of my favorites.
Jim

 

[Naby]

Thanks. So it sounds like the K-Frames weren't made for a steady diet of magnums like the L-Frames. That's no problem for me, I would practice mostly with .38 +P's, practice a little with .357's, and then carry .357's. What is the "-7" or "-x", the generation of the model? Does S&W still use the "-x" with their current models? I've never noticed it on either of the two revolvers I have.

 

[P&R Fan]

The dashes refer to engineering changes made over the years. Every time they made a change they would give it a different dash number.
If you really want to know all things S&W you should get a copy of the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson by Jim Supica and Richard Nahas. All this info is in there as well as serial number info, which will give you a year the gun was born (You didn't really think we had all that stuff memorized, did you). This is a great read and you'll really enjoy it.
Jim

 

[stantheman86]

The Model 19 is legendary and Bill Jordan was the "father" of the K-frame .357.

Bill Jordan and S&W acknowledge that the K-frame .357's like the 19 were designed as LE duty guns, to be lighter in the holster and easier handling, while still allowing LEO's to use .357's for duty. They were never designed for a steady diet of .357. In the 70's and 80's PD's reported that 110-130 gr. .357's were loosening up their K-frame .357's, as well as cracking forcing cones and excessively flame cutting top straps. PD's started training with their duty ammo, rather than .38's.

I believe that occasional use of 158 gr. .357's will not hurt a k-frame .357, but the light bullet .357's are not recommended in any amount other than a token amount of test firing.

 

[TAROMAN]

And then there's the forgotten K-Frame .357, the Model 65:

 

[Naby]

I believe that occasional use of 158 gr. .357's will not hurt a k-frame .357, but the light bullet .357's are not recommended in any amount other than a token amount of test firing.

Is this true for all K-Frames, or just the Model 19?

 

[Kavinsky]

its something to do with the length of the round as the 158's are longer than the 124 grain rounds.

and when the shorter lighter rounds are used it exposes a weakened area of the forcing cone on the bottom of the barrel that was cut to fit the longer cylinder of the .357 magnum to the .38 special K frame to higher PSI or plasma with the magnum loads than the heavier 150's as talked about here

Use of Magnum Loads in S&W Model 19 and Other K-Frame Magnums

hell if it wasnt for the fact that they were worried about people using .357s in .38's and hadnt lengthened the case that issue probably would have never happened with the K frame in the first place

and the gunblast guy has had a model 19 - 3 for the past 20 some years and put any and all normal pressure magnums through it with no trouble when I asked him about it awhile back in an email I sent him, its just the possibility of getting one that has a forcing cone that isnt really up to spec that bugs me otherwise I would have gotten rid of my old $300 dan wesson and replaced it with it awhile ago.

hell the whole issue seems to be 70% a quality control issue and 30% a design issue and if smith and wesson would just reissue the gun with that particular area appropriately machined to give it a little extra metal in that area it would probably turn into a non issue and the K frame would thrive again with no real problems hopefully and I'd buy one as long as they'd see sense and get rid of that keylock and got it the overal QC and customer service of the company back up to 99% like the old days



still if I was the head of smith and wesson I'd have a few prototype guns rigged up and tested with a 50,000 of both 120 gr loads and 150 grain loads at even intervals and then afterwards sell the finished product that has no issues whatsoever as a custom shop only gun without that stupid keylock to make up the cost of development for a few years and then turned into normal production guns once they were a 100% street proven

hell the old N frame .357 was just that back in the day and sold like hotcakes despite the price and basically being custom shop only guns, after all if you make a good product that will last forever they will come and buy your product, athough 1000 is probably about the most you could reasonabily sell the thing for in its custom shop form, but the key is not to nickel and dime something like that as otherwise you cut key corners and a bulletproof vintage mercedes turns into a troublesome modern chrysler.



anyways try and find one with recessed clyinders, firing pin mounted on the hammer and a pinned barrel as that would make it a pre 1980's gun before the QC problems hit as the gunblast guys gun is a pre 1980 like my model 29

The Smith & Wesson Model 19

and is about the same vintage as hickok45's model 29 that has lasted 70,000 some rounds

.44 Magnum Model 29 8-inch (Close-up) - YouTube

although it did go in for repair only about 6 months ago, but basically for about damn near 30 years and a ton of wear it had zero problems and it was only really a minor repair, after all nothing in life is really a 100% infallible no matter how good it is.


and make sure the forcing cone looks good and stong and you'll probably have a K frame on your hands that will last as long as any of the pre 1980s N frames as long as you dont use hotrodded ammo in it like some people did with the Model 29 and then frankly bitched about it not being able to take the strain of their overpowered loads despite it being their fault that they overloaded the gun and expected it to hold up to their unreasonabile expectations.

 

[18DAI]

Naby if you can afford to purchase enough 357 ammunition to wear out a K-frame magnum, you can easily afford to buy two more to replace it with.

The K-frame magnums were made side by side with the L-frames for over twenty years. Kind of a long production run for a flawed design, don't you think?

S&W doesn't currently produce a revolver as nice as a K-frame magnum. Buy one, shoot it, love it. Get a nice 13, 19 or pre lock 66. Shoot only 158 grain grain 357's and your grandchildren will enjoy that fine revolver.

In forty three years of shooting K-frame magnums I've yet to wear one out or break one in any fashion. Regards 18DAI

 

[M3Stuart]

Oh boy! Another excuse to show off the colossal 66-4 2.5" in perrrrrfect condition I just picked up Monday!!!!

This is, IMHO, the high point of K frame .357 S&W production:

Yes. I know. It needs new grips...

 

[1 old 0311]

Hard to beat the 66

or the 19

 

[Tyrod]

It kinda flies in the face of logic that S&W would drop the k-frame because it couldn't stand a steady diet of magnums while at the same time producing the j-frame in magnum caliber and not officially saying doodly squat about a steady diet of magnums.

 

[Kavinsky]

aint that the truth.

 

[lhump1961]

Naby if you can afford to purchase enough 357 ammunition to wear out a K-frame magnum, you can easily afford to buy two more to replace it with.

The K-frame magnums were made side by side with the L-frames for over twenty years. Kind of a long production run for a flawed design, don't you think?

S&W doesn't currently produce a revolver as nice as a K-frame magnum. Buy one, shoot it, love it. Get a nice 13, 19 or pre lock 66. Shoot only 158 grain grain 357's and your grandchildren will enjoy that fine revolver.

In forty three years of shooting K-frame magnums I've yet to wear one out or break one in any fashion. Regards 18DAI

This is the best and only response anyone needs to the K frame question. The K frame .357 was made for DECADES and is still highly regarded in it's retirement. I wouldn't be without at least a fistful of K's! The description of what you are looking for is what the K frame is all about. Best carry .357 IMO.

Here's a couple to wet your whistle. Many members here can show you much more than I (Allen-Frame comes to mind) and perhaps if they see this thread they will introduce you to the wonderful world of K frames!

 

[lhump1961]

1 old 0311 posted while I typed...beautiful guns!

 

[1 old 0311]

1 old 0311 posted while I typed...beautiful guns!

Thanks. I have J's, L's, and N's but a K frame is the one I would grab if I could only have one.

 

[lhump1961]

Thanks. I have J's, L's, and N's but a K frame is the one I would grab if I could only have one.

I agree completely...I carry one daily. If there is anything more impressive than those snubbie K's you have there it is all those great grips!

 

[Naby]

Thanks to all of you for the responses, I'll have to start looking for one .

 

[1 old 0311]

I agree completely...I carry one daily. If there is anything more impressive than those snubbie K's you have there it is all those great grips!

Work LOTS of these into your diet and the pennies will add up. Last weeks dinner was long ago flushed, but a clean K frame, or nice grips, will be appreciated long after this old Grunt is gone.

 

[jhde69]

K frame

You will use your k frame before any other S & W frame revolvers. I enjoy my 25-5 N frame and my j frames but my 66 357 mag goes with me to the timber. I run a lot of 38's thru it and load 357 for timber walks. Now here is where the trouble starts after the model 66 you will want a model 15 in 38 cal and the list will just go on and on. j

 

[mag318]

To me the K frame Model 66 is the ultimate revolver. Years ago I recommended that they produce a 38 Special version which is what most people use in the 66s anyway. Then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I routinely carry mine loaded with the old Chicago police load, Winchester 158 grn +P LHP. Once in awhile I'll shoot some 158 grn Gold Dot 357s thru it but always come back to the CPD load for carry.
I love the feel of my 3" 66 in my hand and find it to be the perfect size for most of my applications. The size of this revolver is just about perfect.

 

[Poohgyrr]

K frames are great - and with the right grips for your hand these become awesome six shooters.

Here are two favorites:

 

[squidsix]

The K-frame is the best revolver ever. Period. There are other great guns out there, and some are so nice they will literally keep you up at night lusting after them, but until you have a Combat Magnum, you are missing the boat completely.

 

[roaddog28]

I know other member of this forum will disagree, but in my opinion the S&W K frame magnum is the best all around revolver S&W ever made. My three K frame have the best double action trigger pull I have ever experienced. If you want to complete a revolver collection a K frame magnum is a must.
Here are my three.

Model 13-2 4 inch

Model 19-2 4 inch

Model 66-4 4 inch

 

[bananaman]

Poohgyrr, nice k-frames! I like the grips! I have 4 k's, and none of them have originals on them. (did keep them though) My 10-8 Aussie Police Gun has C.T. lasers on. Pretty neat, to use. Bob

 

[MTKTM]

I totally agree with the posters who state that it makes no sense that S&W discontinued the K-frame in part because it supposedly could not handle a steady diet of 357s, and at the same time were kicking out new models of J-frame 357s right and left. I personally find the little J-frame 357s to be miserable things to shoot, although they are nice to carry.

I have a 4" 66-7 from 2005. I believe that was the last year. I've owned several other 357 Ks over the years, a 6" 19, a pair of 2.5" 19s, and a 2.5" 66. I only have the 66-7 and a 1980 vintage nickel 2.5" 19 at present. They are still not too hard to find, and I suspect that Smith might re-introduce some variant of the 19/66 again one of these days, but I'd grab an old one if'n you don't already have one!! Great guns.

 

[MTKTM]

PS: For some curious reason, I've never taken to the L-frame. I am not sure why. I wouldn't mind having a 686SSR and that gun is on my short-list, but despite the fact that I have a fair number of S&W revolvers at present, none are Ls. They just seem like tain't to me, tain't K and tain't N. No disrespect of that frame intended, I have no doubt that they are fine revolvers, but just haven't fitted into my template thusfar.

 

[47D]

I totally agree with the posters who state that it makes no sense that S&W discontinued the K-frame in part because it supposedly could not handle a steady diet of 357s, and at the same time were kicking out new models of J-frame 357s right and left. I personally find the little J-frame 357s to be miserable things to shoot, although they are nice to carry.

You answered your own question. Nobody is masochistic enough to shoot a sufficient quantity of hot .357s out of a J-frame to break one.

 

[scooter123]

I'll probably take some heat for it but IMO the K frame really isn't well suited to the 357 Magnum. One poster stated that he felt that the failures were "only" 30% a fault of the design. As an Engineer I do NOT think that is even on the threshold of acceptable. Would you drive a car or fly on an airplane that only crashed 30% of the time due to a design flaw? I rather doubt you would. BTW, the actual failure rate is undoubtedly much much lower but even 1/2 of 1 percent is unacceptable if you think about it happening in airplane terms. In addition there is the matter of the lifetime warranty which I have no doubt had some influence in the decision to drop the 357 Magnum K frames.

Fortunately, and unfortunately, there is an L frame that approaches the weigh of a 4 inch model 19 or 66 within an ounce or two. Fortunate in that you can find one if you are dilligent. Unfortunate in that it's not easy to find. That is the 686 Mountain Gun with the 7 shot cylinder. IMO S&W really need to wake up and smell the coffee and put a light barreled L frame into regular production, they could build a version in blued steel and call it the "new Model 19" and I doubt that there would be many objections to that at all. They could also drop that billboard engraving on the 686 and call it a "new model 66" for the stainless version.

Personally I think the L frame was an excellent solution to a known design weakness and the only mistake they made was putting a full length lug on nearly every barrel in the L frames. It would be nice to see the half lug or partial lug tapered barrels make a comeback because they do feel better balanced to me.

As for the 357 Magnum as a Defesive caliber, with today's modern bullet technology I think it's a poor choice, especially in a short barrel. It's too loud, has too much muzzle flash, and the increase in velocity over a good 38 +P isn't worth the risk of long term hearing loss of using a Magnum for defense. BTW, my ears ring every day when I wake up and go to bed, so I'm very well acquanted with the effects of hearing damage and loss. Magnum are fun at the range and a great hunting caliber but NOT my choice for Defense, for that I'll select a load that doesn't do any more harm to my remaining hearing.