K38 from 1957 and +P ammo?

[bczrx]

Hello All,

I have a 4-screw K38 that was made in 1957- the serial number puts it square in the middle of the serial number batch associated with that year.

So, would that make it a summer gun?


From everything I've read, in 1957 S&W gave orders to start stamping frames with numbers- and the Mod- 10 was the first so stamped, in june or july of 1957.

I have to dig mine out to check, but I don't remember a 14 stamp in it.


From other sources I've read, S&W says it is ok to use .38special +P ammo in the number-series [10, 14, 15, etc] revolvers, but not in the pre-numbered ones.


This leads me to a few thoughts, but one major question: Does mine HAVE to have the 14 in the yoke area to qualify as ok for .38sp +P?

Or, since it was made the same year the 14 designation was assigned, does this mean it is as strong as the ones that were released 6-9 months later with that '14' in the yoke?


My 'instinct' is that I am fine, as I have trouble thinking that they changed the steel and treatment 1 week after making mine, when it was made in the middle of the run, and that designation of '14' was ordered to be applied to that year's products.

My thought is that this was to prevent +P from being used in pre-1950 victory or M&P models, for example.

Anyone have any insights to share?

First, and simplest to answer: Am I ok shooting +P in a 1957 K38 6" barrel, made in the middle of the serial number sequence for that year?


More difficult to answer quickly- what changed about the heat treatment and/or metallurgy [and what year was said change] to make +P be safe in some, vs the earlier ones?

Thanks in advance

 

[Jack Flash]

... I have a 4-screw K38 that was made in 1957- the serial number puts it square in the middle of the serial number batch associated with that year.

... This leads me to a few thoughts, but one major question: Does mine HAVE to have the 14 in the yoke area to qualify as ok for .38sp +P?

Or, since it was made the same year the 14 designation was assigned, does this mean it is as strong as the ones that were released 6-9 months later with that '14' in the yoke?


My 'instinct' is that I am fine ...

My instinct is the same as yours. I sure would shoot +P with it and not worry at all. The ones made the day before model numbers were stamped are just as strong as the ones made the day after.

I think the whole thing about using model numbers as a cutoff point is a quick easy-to-remember rule of thumb for S&W help line operators to give out.
Personally, the gun would have to be about 100 years old before I would be concerned.

 

[rct269]

Absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER about any aspect of the gun changed as respects your ability to use +P ammo---------although one might wonder why you'd want to.

What changed was the ammunition makers' satisfaction with their return on investment-----and the resultant desire to improve it. So----what to do?

How about something along these lines? "Let's put out another load----call it new and improved---or something implying a lot more power and charge more for it." Do you really think that would work? Well it wouldn't hurt, and it wouldn't cost anything worth talking about to try it."

And the rest, as they say, is history.

And speaking of history, you might want to study up a little bit about the performance of the .38 Special round over its lifetime----and pay particular attention to the 38/44 .38 S&W Special that came into being in the late 1920's-early 30's. THAT was a round to wonder about using in a K or J frame. S&W said it was okay, but they didn't recommend it----and they built an N frame especially for it.

And if you're wondering about materials---and heat treating and such, I have a copy of a March 1934 letter from D.B. Wesson, then Vice President of S&W which speaks to that. Suffice it to say the steel they were using then was good to go for ANY gun they were making at the time----WITHOUT any treatment (but they did treat the material used for the heavier calibers---took it from a tensile strength of about 80,000 lbs. (good enough for anything they made) to 130,000 lbs. because "--------we do very much prefer the greatly increased factor of safety----that treating gives.)."

All that said, the ammo companies are tickled to death that you'd ask about what you've asked about.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[epj]

If it were from say pre 1925, I’d probably pass on the +P. My gut is that the present +P isn’t much or any stouter than the regular .38 Special of yesteryear. Despite it not being recommended for 38-44 loads, apparently many folks used these in their M&P models without significant problem. These loads were a bunch stouter than regular.38or today’s .38+P
Back in the day,however, most owners didn’t run 500 rounds through their guns in a lifetime, much less a weekend.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Here we go again. There must be several hundred threads on this question on the forum. First, the .38 S&W Special cartridge was designed in 1899 for a velocity of 900 to 950 FPS. If you look on the boxes of .38 Special standard cartridges are around 700-750 FPS and +P approaches 900 FPS. Current standard cartridges are at 17,000 psi and +P is around 19,000 psi. Cylinders and barrels need to proof out at 25, 000 psi. So, I doubt S&W would make a revolver that didn't match that requirement. You are safe shooting any pressure commercial ammo made today.

 

[delcrossv]

Depends on whose +P . For example, I wouldn't be stuffing Underwood +p's into my Mod 1899

158 grn. Hard Cast Keith

Ruger SP 101 2.25 bbl= 1071 FPS, for 402 FPE.
S&W Model 64 4.0 bbl=1167 FPS, for 442 FPE.
Overcast, mid 60s temperature, humidity 77%

Not chrono'd in my 5" HD, but prolly over 1200 fps.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

 

[raljr1]

one might wonder why you'd want to.

Ralph Tremaine

You have a fine target revolver. For target shooting, why pay for +P ammo. Unless it it the only revolver you have and you must use it for self defense, I agree with the esteemed Mr, Tremaine.

If it is the only revolver you own, by all means load it up with +P ammo for self defense.

My humble opinion.

 

[Drm50]

Question to me is why would you want to shoot +P ammo in a Target Pistol?

 

[JP@AK]

Here we go again.

Yeah.

 

[Grayfox]

Never mind. I figured it out.

 

[S42N8]

FWIW:

The above on the relative reduction of the .38 Special factory load over the years is far more than I know; I do not dispute it. As the owner of a couple.38s that are past the century mark, I would suggest this: Remington Target Ammo 38 Special 148 Grain Lead Target Master.

The K38 is a target pistol. Perfectly capable of +P, but unless you must shoot +P, target ammo was what it was made to shoot. Why not treat it as intended? As for wadcutters, Jim Cirillo advocated them for the .38. I’m sure he’d opt for something friskier in the 21st century, but nonetheless, there’s many a soul hastened to their reward by a properly placed wadcutter...which is kinda what the K38 was made for. Just my .02 worth.

 

[delcrossv]

Too bad it's discontinued.

I have to agree, if you're not carrying it for self defense or using as the "house gun", there's no need for +p ammo.

 

[larryofcc]

Sell the old warhorse and buy a 357 Magnum. Then you will have no more worries. I too own a 1957 vintage K38 and it would be a cold day in &^%$ that I would put +P's through it. Big Larry

 

[Wiregrassguy]

The cartridge pressure discussion in this thread was not about whether you should shoot +P ammo or not. It was about whether the engineering of the gun would support shooting it. It is analogous to asking "can my Porsche be run at 100 mph?" The answer is "yes." Whether you should do that or stay within a more typical speed limit is purely a personal decision.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Sell the old warhorse and buy a 357 Magnum. Then you will have no more worries. I too own a 1957 vintage K38 and it would be a cold day in &^%$ that I would put +P's through it. Big Larry

Yeah, sell it to me and buy a 357. Then you can load er up with what ever 38 +P+ ammo you want. I'll give you a decent price for that relic.

 

[JP@AK]

It is analogous to asking "can my Porsche be run at 100 mph?"

Only 100???

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Well, 150 mph is +P++...

 

[bczrx]

Hi All,

Thanks for the information. You have helped me understand what I was getting at.

Wiregrassguy got me: I am really more intrigued by metallurgic changes, changes in heat-treating, and any other changes.


I don't plan to ever shoot +P through it, but wanted to know what changed and when, as well as verify it is ok. This is a 'just incase' type question. If there is a significant shortage of ammo and this is the only operable revolver I have left, I wanted to know if I could do both.

As to the 'sell it and get a .357' type responses- Not needed.

I already have a 586 Classic, a Colt Model 3 5 7 [predecessor to Python- just a different barrel and topstrap contour], Blackhawk and GP100.

I have that end covered.

On the target .38 side, I have this 1957 K38 Target Masterpiece, but I also have a 1935 Colt OMT. I knew the Colts could handle the pressure of a +P, but that I shouldn't do that with them as it might take them out of time faster- and I don't plan on shooting +P from any of them. [oh, and a Model 10-6, but that isn't a target gun.]

I am a bit of a tech-head, in that I wanted to try to get an idea of the changes [if any] in the metallurgy or heat treating at S&W that would make a 1958 Model 14 safe for +P but not a 1956 K38.



Thanks all!

 

[Gordyf808]

Sell the old warhorse and buy a 357 Magnum. Then you will have no more worries. I too own a 1957 vintage K38 and it would be a cold day in &^%$ that I would put +P's through it. Big Larry

I have one too, same time frame, and agree with Larry... Why? just Why?
What's the sense?