LE Classic Class 3 shotguns and carbines

[Joe Kent]

Do any of our LE collectors or Class Three dealers have any pictures of factory short barreled shotguns,ie. Ithaca 20 Ga. Auto Burglar , Remington Model 17"Whippet Guns" or some of the short barrel lever actions ,that may have been carried by Old Time Peace Officers? We might also expand the thread to Winchester 1907's and Remington Model 8's and 81's as well as Winchester Model 12's and 97's and other guns of the "the day". Best, Joe.

 

[Joe Kent]

Come on guys, anybody have any knowledge of these?

 

[Joe Kent]

bump to the top

 

[Gunslinger808]

Sorry, all I have are modern 870s and Benelli shorties.

 

[Alpo]

Will "used by a criminal" work? John Dillinger's guns, and there's an auto-burglar down at the bottom.


Not my guns - FBI museum.

 

[mc5aw]

Joe ... I'll join in the fray, but with something that is probably not exactly what you're looking for. This is a stock photo of a Remington 870 AOW similar to one that I own. Mine was reportedly a Secret Service overrun, ~15 years ago. It is strictly for up close and personal work, and operates well with low recoil 12 gauge shells, but is a monster with anything approaching buck or slugs. I believe LEO/Feds use it for dangerous entry situations, room clearing, etc. I call it the Blunderbuss.

 

[Cyrano]

Years ago, when one of the banks here opened a new building they'd built. they had a display of weapons with a local history. One was a Winchester 94, owned by a local sheriff, with 14 inch barrel. He guarded John Dilliger at one time with it and Dillinger called it a 'pea shooter'. It was in aprivate collection, an I believe a lot of them are.

They also had the revolver that killed Billy the Kid; owned by a lawyer in Dallas named Garrett, a grandson of Pat Garrett. I think the lawyer has since died and I don't know what happened to the revolver.

 

[jaykellogg]

There are a couple of (seems to me) new on the market bullpup designed shotguns. These would have the required length of barrel to avoid the NFA, but are about as short as a sawed off pump with a pistol grip. Here is the KelTec KSG. Don't know it it is a good fit for the thread.

Here is the UTS15

 

[BJoe]

Here is a nice 'stamp' collection.

 

[CALIF GIRL]

I always knew it was going to be a good day at work when I could go to the armory and find my favorite shotgun to put in the radio car for my shift:

A model 37 short barrel, wooden stock, Ithaca with the engraving on the side. sort of like this:



Alas it is no more. We now use a different boomer.

 

[jaykellogg]

Here is a nice 'stamp' collection.

WOW, $2000 in stamps! I assume some of those are centerfire, how about telling which are quiet and which not so. I have an AR in .223/5/56 with a suppressor and it is barely quiet enough to shoot w/o hearing protectors. What cal is the AR?

 

[yaktamer]

WOW, $2000 in stamps! I assume some of those are centerfire, how about telling which are quiet and which not so. I have an AR in .223/5/56 with a suppressor and it is barely quiet enough to shoot w/o hearing protectors. What cal is the AR?

The Serbu Shorty shotgun at the bottom is an AOW, so it's only a $5 stamp. BJoe, is it yours, and if so, how do you like it?

 

[jaykellogg]

The Serbu Shorty shotgun at the bottom is an AOW, so it's only a $5 stamp. BJoe, is it yours, and if so, how do you like it?

Define AOW.

 

[leswad]

Here is a nice 'stamp' collection.

FYI, I hear used stamps are worth $100 to stamp collectors.

 

[Straightshooter2]

Define AOW.

The NFA further defines the term "any other weapon" (AOW) in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e) as:

… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

CW

 

[jaykellogg]

That is a short barreled pump shotgun. Those are AOW's?

 

[yaktamer]

That is a short barreled pump shotgun. Those are AOW's?

It depends. My understanding (and I'm sure the class III folks here will correct me if I'm wrong) is that if the shotgun originally had a regular stock or regular length barrel, and is modified to shorter than the standard minimum, than it's considered a short barrel shotgun and requires the $200 stamp. But if the receiver was acquired bare, and the pistol grip and barrel were added, it's an AOW.

UPDATE: Apprently, as long as it never had a shoulder stock it would be an AOW. So I guess that means that a Mossberg Cruiser originally sold with only a pistol grip that has been modified would qualify, but I wouldn't bet on it without consulting ATF.

 

[Muley Gil]

Back when I was a young deputy sheriff in East Alabama, I knew a state trooper who carried a 14" M97 Winchester in his patrol car.

 

[Autococker07]

It depends. My understanding (and I'm sure the class III folks here will correct me if I'm wrong) is that if the shotgun originally had a regular stock or regular length barrel, and is modified to shorter than the standard minimum, than it's considered a short barrel shotgun and requires the $200 stamp. But if the receiver was acquired bare, and the pistol grip and barrel were added, it's an AOW.

UPDATE: Apprently, as long as it never had a shoulder stock it would be an AOW. So I guess that means that a Mossberg Cruiser originally sold with only a pistol grip that has been modified would qualify, but I wouldn't bet on it without consulting ATF.

almost right.... "But if the receiver was acquired bare, and the pistol grip and barrel were added, it's an AOW." this is true if a class 2 manufacturer makes the gun, if an individual wishes to "make" an AOW, it requires the $200 "making/possession" tax (basically, there is a $200 tax on "making" anything<of course class 2 is exempt form this tax>, but the AOW could transfer from that point on for a $5 stamp)

Also, I seem to remember hearing somewhere that an AOW classed shotgun could only be from a class2 manufacturer, so a homebuilt would simply be a SBS, and the $200 subsequent transfer taxes would apply.... not 100% on that though...

 

[yaktamer]

almost right.... "But if the receiver was acquired bare, and the pistol grip and barrel were added, it's an AOW." this is true if a class 2 manufacturer makes the gun, if an individual wishes to "make" an AOW, it requires the $200 "making/possession" tax (basically, there is a $200 tax on "making" anything<of course class 2 is exempt form this tax>, but the AOW could transfer from that point on for a $5 stamp)

Also, I seem to remember hearing somewhere that an AOW classed shotgun could only be from a class2 manufacturer, so a homebuilt would simply be a SBS, and the $200 subsequent transfer taxes would apply.... not 100% on that though...

This makes sense. Of course, that makes me wonder if it's correct.