At what speed do you folks see "bad" leading from Cast bullets in a six inch barrel? Does the speed change with the caliber. I usually load at speeds less than 900 in all of my Smiths, just wondering? I interested in 357 mag, 41 mag, 44 mag.
Leading
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The generally accepted figure is about 1,000 FPS from a hard cast properly lubricated bullet. In my experience that is approximately correct.
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Erich
Member
I had heard this 1k fps figure for years, and it kept me from shooting hardcasts fast. Boy, did I miss out!
In my experience it depends on a LOT more than just the velocity. For instance, I've had Tennessee Valley Bullets up around 1400 fps w/o any leading at all - and only very minimal leading over 50 rounds down a rifle bore at between 1500 and 2000 fps. And I've had Hornady swaged bullets up over 1100 fps w/o leading.
I think it has to do with the alloy used, the condition of the bore, the velocity, the lube used, and the powder used. The powder never really suggested itself to me, but I've shot handloads that leaded the heck out of my bores at c. 900 fps over Green Dot - and the same exact bullet cruised at over 1200 fps with 4756 with no leading at all.
Anyhow, I routinely shoot hardcasts (TVB, Meister, CO Cast) over 1200 fps from .357 Mags and .41 Mags without a bit of leading (just did a .41 Mag load with Lil' Gun that did 1340 fps from my 4" Model 57 using TVB 215-grainers - no leading at all). Skip (SmithCrazy) could probably give you some pointers on casting/lubing for velocity if you cast your own, but if you buy from a reputable maker such as those I've listed, I doubt you'd ever have problems at handgun velocities.
In my experience it depends on a LOT more than just the velocity. For instance, I've had Tennessee Valley Bullets up around 1400 fps w/o any leading at all - and only very minimal leading over 50 rounds down a rifle bore at between 1500 and 2000 fps. And I've had Hornady swaged bullets up over 1100 fps w/o leading.
I think it has to do with the alloy used, the condition of the bore, the velocity, the lube used, and the powder used. The powder never really suggested itself to me, but I've shot handloads that leaded the heck out of my bores at c. 900 fps over Green Dot - and the same exact bullet cruised at over 1200 fps with 4756 with no leading at all.
Anyhow, I routinely shoot hardcasts (TVB, Meister, CO Cast) over 1200 fps from .357 Mags and .41 Mags without a bit of leading (just did a .41 Mag load with Lil' Gun that did 1340 fps from my 4" Model 57 using TVB 215-grainers - no leading at all). Skip (SmithCrazy) could probably give you some pointers on casting/lubing for velocity if you cast your own, but if you buy from a reputable maker such as those I've listed, I doubt you'd ever have problems at handgun velocities.
James57
Member
leading
I was guility of recommending the 1000fps limit for years. That was because in the 50's and 60's the bullets available to the handloader were made mostly by Remington, Speer, and others who swaged the bullets instead of casting them. That meant soft lead had to be used. That meant leading above the 900fps velocities was more probable than not. When I bought my first .41 magnum Ruger Blackhawk when they first came out I purchased a box of Remington factory loaded 210 grain lead bullets. Those things leaded my .41 so bad I thought I would never get it cleaned. I finally switched to jacketed bullets and shot less because of the leading. Years later, I found out about some custom bullet casters who cast hard lead bullets and bought some to try--boy what an eye opener. I found I could push their bullets past the 1250fps level and no leading. Younger shooters who did not go thru the 50's and 60's have no idea just how good they have it these days. Both in bullets available and the equipment to reload. And add to that is a great site such as this one to both seek information and exchange information. Get the bore diameter and sizing right and using really hard lead, I am convinced that you can push lead up to the 2000fps before leading becomes a factor. I have read reports of instances where lead bullets with crimped base jackets have been push past 2000fps with no leading, and this from people who shoot lead regularly and who I trust. Just don't try to shoot really hard lead bullets at reduced velocities because then the old leading bugaboo can crop up to bite you again. Low velocities need a softer lead than higher velocity. The bullet can obdurate then. My experience anyway. James
I was guility of recommending the 1000fps limit for years. That was because in the 50's and 60's the bullets available to the handloader were made mostly by Remington, Speer, and others who swaged the bullets instead of casting them. That meant soft lead had to be used. That meant leading above the 900fps velocities was more probable than not. When I bought my first .41 magnum Ruger Blackhawk when they first came out I purchased a box of Remington factory loaded 210 grain lead bullets. Those things leaded my .41 so bad I thought I would never get it cleaned. I finally switched to jacketed bullets and shot less because of the leading. Years later, I found out about some custom bullet casters who cast hard lead bullets and bought some to try--boy what an eye opener. I found I could push their bullets past the 1250fps level and no leading. Younger shooters who did not go thru the 50's and 60's have no idea just how good they have it these days. Both in bullets available and the equipment to reload. And add to that is a great site such as this one to both seek information and exchange information. Get the bore diameter and sizing right and using really hard lead, I am convinced that you can push lead up to the 2000fps before leading becomes a factor. I have read reports of instances where lead bullets with crimped base jackets have been push past 2000fps with no leading, and this from people who shoot lead regularly and who I trust. Just don't try to shoot really hard lead bullets at reduced velocities because then the old leading bugaboo can crop up to bite you again. Low velocities need a softer lead than higher velocity. The bullet can obdurate then. My experience anyway. James
Several good manufacturers have bullets which will allow you to run as hard in a handgun as you can without leading. TVB is one and Penn is another but they aren't the only ones, just who I'm familiar with. The other end of this is that with these great bullets you can run them too slow and get leading. I'd speculate that the low end on some of these is 1000fps and the high end is where you want, keeping safety in mine of course.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
From a caster's point of view.
I cast my own bullets. I wish I could say I've never had leading, but I can't.
Four main things contribute to leading: Size, hardness, pressure and bore condition.
Usually size has to be .001" to .002" over slugged bore size. This is a rule of thumb, you will have to work on your own firearm to be sure.
Hardness has to be matched to the pressure derived from your load. The less the pressure is the softer the bullet needs to be. This IS a hard fast rule. Use the Lee chart. It is available from their website.
Bore condition. There are a lot of factors to this. Rifling type and conditon coupled with twist rate play a major role in leading. Copper fowling from jacketed ammo can really wreak havoc with semi-auto firearms.
The 1000fps limit for lead bullets is foolish. I have driven my home-cast 250gr 44mag Elmer Keith bullets to velocities well over 1800fps from my rifles with no leading.
If you want to have the same results you are going to have to get into casting for yourself. Otherwise you will always be at the mercy of the market and the commercial casters.
Not me!
I cast my own bullets. I wish I could say I've never had leading, but I can't.
Four main things contribute to leading: Size, hardness, pressure and bore condition.
Usually size has to be .001" to .002" over slugged bore size. This is a rule of thumb, you will have to work on your own firearm to be sure.
Hardness has to be matched to the pressure derived from your load. The less the pressure is the softer the bullet needs to be. This IS a hard fast rule. Use the Lee chart. It is available from their website.
Bore condition. There are a lot of factors to this. Rifling type and conditon coupled with twist rate play a major role in leading. Copper fowling from jacketed ammo can really wreak havoc with semi-auto firearms.
The 1000fps limit for lead bullets is foolish. I have driven my home-cast 250gr 44mag Elmer Keith bullets to velocities well over 1800fps from my rifles with no leading.
If you want to have the same results you are going to have to get into casting for yourself. Otherwise you will always be at the mercy of the market and the commercial casters.
Not me!
sheepman
Member
As mentioned above there is more to leading than velocity. I have had leading problems with hard cast at target velocity and no leading with wheel weights with the same load in the same gun and just the opposite with higher velocity loads. Also stainless hand guns seem to lead more with my target loads. It seems that hard cast bullets with good lube can be driven quite fast with little leading. Good luck : Bill
Paul5388
US Veteran
My normal alloy is 50% wheel weights and 50% pure lead. That's fairly soft and yet, if the sizing is right for the bore, there won't be any leading.
I shot some .45 Colt yesterday at 1450 fps with that alloy and didn't get any leading. Of course, I've also shot the same alloy at 1750 fps in .38 Special and didn't get any leading (both were shot from rifles).
Too many people think the lead base tends to "melt" and that causes leading, but there isn't any melting that happens in the bore. I retrieved a cloth patch recently from a muzzle loader and the only discoloration was from the black powder residue that transferred in the seating process. No scorching or anything else out of the ordinary.
I shot some .45 Colt yesterday at 1450 fps with that alloy and didn't get any leading. Of course, I've also shot the same alloy at 1750 fps in .38 Special and didn't get any leading (both were shot from rifles).
Too many people think the lead base tends to "melt" and that causes leading, but there isn't any melting that happens in the bore. I retrieved a cloth patch recently from a muzzle loader and the only discoloration was from the black powder residue that transferred in the seating process. No scorching or anything else out of the ordinary.
Throat size is very important as well as the other things mentioned above. If your throats are more than a couple thousandths larger than your bullet size, or worse yet a couple thousandths under sized, you'll end up with leading problems more often than not.
Think about it. If you cast your bullets, or are using some commercial bullets that are a perfect match for your bore, but fire them through undersized throats, you've essentially just resized them before they go through yopur barrel. They won't be as accurate, and they'll generally lead like crazy.
Just another thing to consider.
Think about it. If you cast your bullets, or are using some commercial bullets that are a perfect match for your bore, but fire them through undersized throats, you've essentially just resized them before they go through yopur barrel. They won't be as accurate, and they'll generally lead like crazy.
Just another thing to consider.
I load lots of Hornady .358 148 gr HBWC and don't get much leading with either 3.2 gr W231 or 2.8 Bullseye. The bullseye load leads a little more, which may be due to bullseye burning hotter. My gun gets warmer shooting bullseye than with W231. I used to get a bit of leading with Titegroup, which I abandoned last year some time.
I don't get any leading with Hornady 158 gr LSWC over 3.5 gr Bullseye.
For full power .357 loads (or as full power as I like it), I shoot 160 gr hard cast bullets from a local caster over 14 gr of 2400, no leading. Velocity should be around 1200 fps.
I don't get any leading with Hornady 158 gr LSWC over 3.5 gr Bullseye.
For full power .357 loads (or as full power as I like it), I shoot 160 gr hard cast bullets from a local caster over 14 gr of 2400, no leading. Velocity should be around 1200 fps.
flash60601
US Veteran
To which I might add: To a lesser extent,but still significantly, powder choice, lube choice, and alloy composition.
Back in the 70's I had a friend at a newspaper gift me with nearly fifty pounds of linotype - some used, some new from the smelter - when the paper went out of business. Pure lino did not weigh fully what a pure lead would from the same mold, but shot nicely nevertheless.
Pure lino lubed with Alox/beeswax through our 357's went over 1400 and kept the barrel clean. I even did some 180 gr 30 cal gas-checks which he shot from his 30-06 at velocities he felt were in excess of 1900 with no leading there either with great accuracy.
Powder: 2400 worked best in the 357, by far - not only with pure lino, but with lino alloyed into the lead.
Which reminds me, I have a bucket of pied letterpress type, maybe 25 lbs, around here somewhere. Might be fun to cast that up and see what it will do. It is even lighter and harder than lino.
Flash
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