Lee liquid allox?

[S&W1006]

I have a S&W M&P Pro 40 I shoot competition with. To save money on reloading I have been using hard cast lubed 175 SWC and 180 truncated cone. I load the over 3.6 grains of Bullseye. They are mild recoiling loads and my brass lands at my feet. The M&P groups them very well when I do my part. I don't have a chrono but I'm guessing they are around 750-850 fps. As you can imagine they do lead the barrel a bit after I shoot a match. I used to use Precision bullets that are coated with what I assume is moly. They smoked some but never leaded. I even shot them in my medium power 10mm loads with no leading. They have gotten too expensive so I switched to the lubed lead. Gas checks are not an option they put the cost per bullet up close to plated bullets. I like the moly coated bullets and plated bullets but I shoot a lot and the savings add up but as you can imagine cleaning the lead out gets tiresome. I had a thought about the Lee tumble lube. I've some people swear by it and its not too expensive. Do any of you have any experience with it? Could I tumble lube bullets that already have the wax lube in the lube groove? Would it even be worth bothering with. What do you guys think?

 

[nicky4968]

You can tumble lube bullets that have already been lubed in the usual manner.
The stuff is inexpensive and goes a long way. Many shooters do what you propose.
PS: A handy way to mix it is to drop one of your cast bullets in the bottle as an agitator when you shake it up. You can thin with mineral spirits if you wish.

 

[Harrison]

Yes you can. It may decrease your barrel leading. Most commercial cast ammo has really cruddy lube. It is designed to stay in the lube groove during shipping, rather than do a good job as a lube, especially at low velocities.

I cut my Lee Alox with Mineral spirits about 1 part mineral spirits to 2 parts Alox. Put a handfull or two of bullets in an old tupperware type plastic bowl with a lid and squirt a couple of medium squirts of your Alox-mineral spirts mix in the bowl and gently agitate them. Spread the coated bullets out on a piece of waxed papre and let them dry for 24-36 hours. By mixing your Alox with the MS, you thing the mixture and it dries a lot quicker. You don't need full strength Alox for bullets already lubed. It works great and should cut your leading down, especially at low velocities.

 

[jimkim]

I lubed a bullet that was lubed with Best Lube(similar to Felix) and the Best Lube melted. I then added a piece of Best Lube to a bottle of LLA. After it melted I diluted it with mineral spirits. I tumble lube all of my 40 cal bullets with it now. These are the regular Lee 40-175-TC bullets. I have yet to get any leading with this recipe. I think the mix of LLA and Johnson's paste wax would work just as well. Best Lube contains carnuba wax and the bore still shines after four 14 round magazines.

 

[Senior Citizen]

I poured my own

I have a S&W M&P Pro 40 I shoot competition with. To save money on reloading I have been using hard cast lubed 175 SWC and 180 truncated cone. I load the over 3.6 grains of Bullseye. They are mild recoiling loads and my brass lands at my feet. The M&P groups them very well when I do my part. I don't have a chrono but I'm guessing they are around 750-850 fps. As you can imagine they do lead the barrel a bit after I shoot a match. I used to use Precision bullets that are coated with what I assume is moly. They smoked some but never leaded. I even shot them in my medium power 10mm loads with no leading. They have gotten too expensive so I switched to the lubed lead. Gas checks are not an option they put the cost per bullet up close to plated bullets. I like the moly coated bullets and plated bullets but I shoot a lot and the savings add up but as you can imagine cleaning the lead out gets tiresome. I had a thought about the Lee tumble lube. I've some people swear by it and its not too expensive. Do any of you have any experience with it? Could I tumble lube bullets that already have the wax lube in the lube groove? Would it even be worth bothering with. What do you guys think?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

38's in semi-wadcutters and full wad cutters for competition. Never did I have a problem with it. I poured and loaded 10's of thousands over a 10 year period. I used a Lee bullet sizer and then put about 100 in a zip lock bag and squirted in some liquid allox. Zipped up the bag and then you can roll them around on the counter top and even need the bag in your hands to make sure you get an even lube. I then poured them out onto an old cookie sheet and put them in the oven at about 200 for 10-15 minutes. I won many combat and bullseye matches with my own bullets. I even sold some to close friends who weren't in my classificaton of course. I give the stuff two thumbs up.

SC

 

[S&W1006]

Good to hear I'm going to pick some up and give it a try.

 

[rsrocket1]

I assume you've already slugged your bore and the grooves are .400" or less. If not, you will continue to get leading until you increase the pressure enough to upset the bullet to seal off the gasses (this will be very difficult with commercial cast bullets because they are very hard).
Now, if your bore is small enough to seal off the gas cutting, then an effective lube will probably reduce or eliminate the leading and the Alox should be a good solution. I think that is because the crayon wax lube on the commercial bullets are not doing much more than making them look good. A thin coat of Alox works just as good as a thick coat and is less messy/smokes less than a thick one.

If you decide to stick with Alox but get tired of the mess, go over to castboolits.com and look at this post to make a tumble lube that dries more like a wax coating and does not cause powder/dust/junk to stick to it so badly. I use it for all my cast bullets and really like it.

BTW, try something like 3.0g Clays for the light recoil bullet loads. It burns very clean and drives the pressure up to seal the gases in the chamber. Red Dot works well also, but I like Clays a little better.

 

[dla]

LLA is good stuff. I tumble my pre-lubed cast bullets in it for 44 mag and it does reduce leading. I've used it pure and 45/45/10 - doesn't really matter. A little goes a long ways.

 

[captaint]

The only thing I did not like about LLA/45/45/10 was the buildup in my seater die. Wasn't too thrilled about the rest of the mess, but it did work OK for accuracy and keeping the leading away. Your boolits have to be big enough for your barrel and don't get too caught up in the "hard cast" thing. Too hard can be a bad thing. enjoy Mike

 

[S&W1006]

I haven't slugged the bore but I know the bullets I'm using are .401. I think part of my problem is the lube and it's a new gun. My last trip to the range I fired 100 of my normal loads which is usually enough to really lead the bore. When I broke it down to clean the leading was not as bad. I'm just now approaching 100 rounds through it. I will still try the alox thinned with mineral spirits to see if it helps. I've seen where some use mica powder to keep the bullets from being so sticky so I will try that if I can find some mica powder.

 

[Forrest r]

You need to start by reading your bbl first.

Lead in the rear (back by the chamber) =’s poor bullet/bbl fit, bullet being swaged smaller while reloading, too hard of a bullet being used for soft loads (bullet base can’t expand to seal the bbl).

Leading in the front (crown) end of the bbl =’s lube failure.

It sounds like you have a bullet issue to me, not a lube issue. A hard cast bullet is just that, hard. Too hard of a bullet being driven too soft/slow will cause some serous leading. Most comercial casters use extremely hard alloys & a hard lube. That combo works good for middle to full house loads but are terrible for target load velocities.

I like to use bullets in the 8bhn to 10bhn range for any bullet I load that are being pushed in the 550fps (snub noses) to 1000fps along with a soft lube. The softer lead will expand easier & seal the bbl. I also like a softer lube, I tend to look at bullet lube as not only a lube for the bbl but also a gasket that will help seal the bbl.

A little thinking outside the box, moly the bbl instead of the bullets.
Any time I get a new firearm I like to do a break in period with the bbl. I’m not saying this is correct, right or that this is what anyone else should do. This is what I do to the bbls.
I like to shoot 200 to 300 jacketed bullets in a bbl when I first get it to aid in smoothing/removing any tool marks.
I clean the bbl & then I polish it with jb bore paste & treat it with a moly paste.
Go back to the range & shoot 200 to 300 lead bullets & re-clean, jb polish & moly treat the bbl again.
I do the lead bullet/polish/moly the bbl cycles (usually it takes 3 to 4 times) until the bbl cleans up after a range session with 1 or 2 tight patches.

A 45acp bbl that I did this treatment to along with the products I used, note the dirty single patch next to the bbl.

What the bbl looked like after that single patch was pushed thru it.

How does that bbl shoot after the break-in?
A target load using a 200g lswc & 3.8g of bullseye.

 

[S&W1006]

The worst leading is at the back of the barrel but I get leading throughout the barrel. Its never as bad near the muzzle. I can push them faster but I shoot plates and I need to keep recoil down for speed. I can switch powders as well I keep Unique and Power Pistol on hand as well as my Bullseye. I have all of my bullets already loaded now. I love the load as far as recoil and accuracy. I am about to order more bullets so I'll just have to experiment or I'll just have to give up lead bullets. I don't have any problems with my light 38 special loads with Bullseye and the same bullet manufacturer and same lube. The same 40 load in my Glock with a Lone Wolf barrel leads even worse and that barrel is well broken in. The advertised hardness of the 40 bullets I am using is 16 Bn the 38's are 12Bn. I'll order 500 more and try some different loads and see what happens. Oh and my earlier post I meant I'm apptoaching 1000 not 100. Also before I order my bullets I'll take suggestions on good brands of lead but if they are not significantly cheaper than Moly or plated there is no point in using them. I pay 72 per thousand including shipping. The only reason I went with lead is cost but the leading is frustrating.

 

[S&W1006]

I'll throw this out there also. I own 3 10mm's 2 S&W's and a Glock. The Glock has a Lone Wolf barrel the Smiths stock barrels. The last lead bullet I tried was a 155grain bullet. I didn't own the M&P at the time but I also have a Lone Wolf conversion barrel for the Glock to shoot 40's. I was pushing those 155's faster than I am pushinh the 175's and 180's. I used Unique in the 10mm loads and again no chrono but my best guess is around 950-1050. They leaded every barrel. I stopped using them in the 10mm's and finished them off in the 40 barrel A coworker swore by this brand of bullet. He uses them in 357 magnum and 44 magnum light loads and swears he has no leading. Another coworker told me I was pushing them too fast that he has shot lead in competition for over 20 years and he said if I kept them under 950 I wouldn't have a problem. Again I don't have a chrono but with the data I have they shouldbe under that number. Now the 175's and 180's I tried this time aremore accurate but they lead just as bad. I have not tried any of these in any of the 10mm's because I don't want to have to scrub the lead out. If the alox doesn't help I'm just going to buy plated bullets that I know I can run in any of my guns with no problems and leave the lead for the 38's which have not been a problem.

 

[txbrill]

I am not addressing the barrel measurements/bullet fit, but I have discovered a couple of things over the past years. First as Forrest r points out most use bullets that are too hard...way to hard a Brinell of approx 8-12 is more than hard enough for any bullet up to 1000 fps. If you Google "pencil test for bullet hardness " you will get instructions on how to test with common pencils. The other thing is the alox 45-45-10 is an excellent bullet lube that provides all the lube you need up to 1000 fps and it is much easier to apply than just alox. It is 45 % Lee LLA-45% melted Johnson Paste Wax and 10% mineral spirits. All you do is heat the wax at a low temp for about 20 minutes while some solvent in the wax burns off, then add the Lee LLA let cool and lastly pour in the Mineral Spirits, it does not need to be an exact formula anything close works fine. All you do is then tumble lube them a minute or so they will pick up a gold tint and that is more than enough. It takes about an hour or so to dry, if the bullets are warm it is even quicker. I have never had any build up of lube in my dies or leading in any of my pistols.

 

[mikld]

It's all a guess if you don't have the facts; slug the barrel to know exactcly what you're working with and mic the bullets (just because they say they are .401" don't mean they really are).

 

[msinc]

Here is my two cents...if you are determined to use the hard cast factory bullets {I totally understand...they are cheap and accurate} then the best thing I can say is develop the mindset that you are going to have lead in the barrel and you are going to have to clean it out as often as it takes. Hard lead will lead the bore regardless of the load or lube, period. Soft lead is expensive and tough to get. That is why bullet companies sell hard cast bullets. Admittedly, "hard cast" sounds better and sells better...at least they are honest about what it is. I have spent alot of valuable time trying to get hard alloy bullets not to lead my bores. I have tried it all from magic lubes to Taylor throats to ultra polished mirror like bores. I will tell you that I have lubed bullets so much that the gun jammed from all the excess lube, I shot 'em hot and shot 'em cold and always had a leaded up bore. I didnt get away from the leading problems until I did one of two things, usually both...speed up the bullet and use bullets that are an alloy of mostly dead soft pure lead. Otherwise get some of those extra stiff bore brushes from Brownell's and do the old shoot'n scrub. I have never mixed anything with LLA, I had a lot of trouble with using too much at first and called Lee. The guy said "if the bullets appear nice and gold in color and it's even darker in the lube grooves you are using way more than you need." He went on to say, "if you correct the amount of lube and get leading it's an alloy problem, too hard." He also said, "if you are seeing smoke from the lube you are using way too much as well." Good luck.

P.S. I cant believe some absolute idiot hasn't jumped on here telling us all about the old mercury trick..."all ya gotta do is pour some mercury in the bore and it dissolves the leading and it wipes right on out." It actually does work that way, but mercury is way harder to get {if you even can} than dead soft lead. Sure dude, let me just run on down to the mercury store and get a quart or so of mercury...that'll fix it!!! I hate sick stupid people.

 

[rsrocket1]

This is what I do:
Get a .40 cal bore mop, the kind that fits fairly snugly down the barrel. Either wrap a couple of strands of Chore Boy around the mop or a small patch of bronze wool. Use the real copper Chore Boy and not the copper plated steel stuff, you can check with a magnet.

Run the bore mop on a cleaning rod in and out of the barrel. You should run into a bit of resistance. The lead will come off with about 15 seconds of cleaning. It is like taking a copper rod and scraping the grooves clean of the lead without risking damage to the bore.

I first started cleaning that way and never knew why people complained about lead in the barrel. 15 seconds of cleaning per session (and only if your barrel leads) never seemed to be much of a deal to me. Be sure to do this outdoors because the lead comes out as a sparkly dust.

 

[MP22]

Sounds like it's worth a try..

 

[S&W1006]

It's not getting the lead out that is the problem. I figured that out and I can get it clean in 5 minutes. The problem is when I shoot a match 100-150 rounds accuracy drops off as the lead builds up. I want to reduce it enough that cleaning halfway through a match isn't necessary. What I have started doing is I load 5 jacketed in around the 50 round mark and it does remove the bulk of the lead. My quest is to reduce leading to the point I can shoot a match with no worrys and as cheap as possible. I searched for brinnel hardness 12 40 bullets but the only ones I can find are for the 38-40 and they have a cannelure for a roll crimp since thats a revolver round. The brinnel 12 38's I use lead very little. I have measured my bullets and they are .401. I know this isn't the correct way but I measured at the muzzle with my digital calipers from groove to groove and it was .397 in the M&P and the Lone Wolf was .399. I will slug the bore asap and see what I have for sure. If they weren't so accurate I would say screw it and spend more money for plated or Moly coated. I plan to start shooting either IDPA or USPSA production class soon so I need cheap and accurate. Plus 4-5 cents more per bullet adds up. I have considered casting my own but I have a lot of equipment to buy and lead isn't very cheap anymore. I ordered more bullets last night from the same manufacturer because they are very accurate no matter if they lead or not. I will experiment with alox and see if it helps and I'll load some with different powders and faster speeds. I only ordered 500 but thats enough to complete my experiment.

 

[jaysouth]

For bullets in .38 and .45, Mastercast makes a soft bullet that they advertise as 14 BH. The prices are just over half what everyone else charges and they shoot VERY well at sane velocities.
MASTERCAST BULLETS

For cheap lube, XLOX is exactly the same stuff as ALOX and a lifetime supply is $10.50 plus shipping. http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/liquid-x.html

My pistol lube is 40% Xlox/Alox/LLA, 40% charcoal lighter fluid, and 20% Johnson's paste wax. I tumble lube in a plastic bag. A hundred bullets gets a bare teaspoon of lube. Then they are dried on wax paper. If shooting as cast, I repeat a couple of days later. Or, if I size, they get lubed after sizing.

 

[ricks1]

One thing to clean the barrel Try Kroil I use a rolled toilet paper and put it in barrel. soak with Kroil over night . and the lead will come out in strips.
The lee lube works by its self. Many cut with the mineral spirts, but heating works too. I put in hot water[tap is fine] and I add about 1 tesp of moly to a bottle.
If you put some in a plastic jar and shake , can do about 100 at a time,
I stand on base on wax paper. Most all will leave the nose and a good bit will stay in grooves. Base will be clean.The clean base cuts the smoke. If you dont thin ,by some way, you will have a feed problem in an auto
And last yes to a soft bullet.
If you dont cast you may ask if some of the casters will do a run for you