Legal defintion of concealed

[Edge68]

Good morning. I did some searching for this answer but so far can't find an answer, probably because I go off on a tangent reading something else, lol. Anyways, I have wondered about this. Let's say you get pulled over by an officer and he sees a bag with gear in it, and then asks if I have a gun. The answer is going to be yes, because in my bag, is a case, with my handgun in it, UNloaded. Am I in trouble? I don't have my CC yet. If that is illegal, what would make the situation legal? I live in Washington state, but using another aspect of carrying,you are on vacation and travelling through many states. How would I make myself legal carrying my handgun?, besides getting CC for all states.
Thankyou.
Edge68

 

[rlongclu]

Good morning. I did some searching for this answer but so far can't find an answer, probably because I go off on a tangent reading something else, lol. Anyways, I have wondered about this. Let's say you get pulled over by an officer and he sees a bag with gear in it, and then asks if I have a gun. The answer is going to be yes, because in my bag, is a case, with my handgun in it, UNloaded. Am I in trouble? I don't have my CC yet. If that is illegal, what would make the situation legal? I live in Washington state, but using another aspect of carrying,you are on vacation and travelling through many states. How would I make myself legal carrying my handgun?, besides getting CC for all states.
Thankyou.
Edge68

Don't know about Washington, but in Ohio you would be ok as long as any ammunition was in the trunk and the unloaded weapon was in the in the passenger compartment, or vice versa. When travelling to other states you need to know the individual state law regarding carrying to be safe.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Edge, please educate yourself here about Washington. Chapter 9.41 RCW: FIREARMS AND DANGEROUS WEAPONS

Each state varies. Handgunlaw.us

 

[Edge68]

Edge, please educate yourself here about Washington. Chapter 9.41 RCW: FIREARMS AND DANGEROUS WEAPONS

Each state varies. Handgunlaw.us

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I have read those codes, in particular, Carrying Firearms, but it does not answer my question. Now I'm thinking in order to be legal, no CC, I should have my gun case in the back seat or passenger side, unzipped and open, unloaded.

 

[RobzGuns]

The best source for your answer may be an instructor.
Does any LGS also teach Concealed Carry classes? If so, ask their instructor. He/She should be up to date with the info and be able to discuss all your concerns in length (and maybe talk you into a great class).

 

[gfy1960]

The best source for your answer may be an instructor.
Does any LGS also teach Concealed Carry classes? If so, ask their instructor. He/She should be up to date with the info and be able to discuss all your concerns in length (and maybe talk you into a great class).

This would be a good place to start. My instructor had an attorney come in and explain CC law and take questions.
Very informative.

 

[Kanewpadle]

The best source for your answer may be an instructor.
Does any LGS also teach Concealed Carry classes? If so, ask their instructor. He/She should be up to date with the info and be able to discuss all your concerns in length (and maybe talk you into a great class).

No offense but I would not rely on an instructor, cop, or gun shop guy for legal answers. Or an internet forum for that matter.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I have read those codes, in particular, Carrying Firearms, but it does not answer my question. Now I'm thinking in order to be legal, no CC, I should have my gun case in the back seat or passenger side, unzipped and open, unloaded.

Read number 9. RCW 9.41.060: Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.

And 3a. RCW 9.41.050: Carrying firearms.

Place the gun in a gun rug or case unloaded. Keep it out of reach. Preferably the trunk.

 

[Edge68]

Ok, thanks all. Keep it out of reach, that doesn't make sense to me, maybe to the cop. And the code does not speak to my question. Your right, I need to speak to an attorney or the like, also, the class sounds very good. They have one coming up locally this month. Thanks again. Have a good weekend.
Edge

 

[Doug M.]

The legal definition will vary from state to state. In Washington, you cannot carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle, or concealed on your person at all, without a CPL. Unloaded and in a non-opaque case in the manner you described is not unlawful. (Poke around in 9.41.050). The RCW (Revised Code of Washington, our statutory laws) is on line at "apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw". FYI, Washington law mandates that if you are qualified for a CPL, it must be issued. IIRC, the issuing entity has 30 days if you have been a resident for at least 90 days, 60 otherwise. Some places take the whole period; some do not. Most if not all issuing entities also have a booklet on Washington firearms laws that you should snag when you go apply. The field of firearms regulation is preempted by state law, so any local ordinance inconsistent with the state law is of no legal effect.

There is also a provision about long guns in the wildlife code (77.15.460, which has been amended recently) but does not appear to have any real changes. (You cannot have a loaded long gun in a vehicle at all, which technically applies to the trunk, a surprise to me when I realized that a few years ago.)

Other states will vary as to when/if you can carry. IIRC, Idaho is among the states that accepts a Washington CPL. In addition to my retired LE ID, covering me under 18 USC 926(c), I have some non-resident carry licenses. The best investments are in Florida and Utah. Some states, you are pretty much SOL (NJ, NY, CA come to mind right away). If you go to those states other than on orders, pay someone to slap you until you learn.

 

[Edge68]

Thanks Doug M. Your reply is very informative, and I have read some of the material you mentioned. I think I will reread them. I have applied for concealed, waiting now. I'm not in that big of a hurry, I just want to be legal when and if I get stopped. Thanks.

 

[Kentucky Dave]

Good advice above. Each state is different and in California you'd be in trouble. But your state defines "Loaded" as:
(12) "Loaded" means:
(a) There is a cartridge in the chamber of the firearm;
(b) Cartridges are in a clip that is locked in place in the firearm;
(c) There is a cartridge in the cylinder of the firearm, if the firearm is a revolver;
(d) There is a cartridge in the tube or magazine that is inserted in the action; or
(e) There is a ball in the barrel and the firearm is capped or primed if the firearm is a muzzle loader.

and your restrictions absent a CCW permit for carrying is:

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol

Whereas we (in CA are restricted from having even the unloaded handgun in the cab of the auto generally (it must be in a locked container, unloaded and a glove box is NOT a locked container) your definitions say:

(3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

and:

(9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

So, while it appears to my unlicensed-as-a-lawyer eye that your self described situation would wiggle on "locked within the vehicle". Arguably you are OK driving with your gun out of sight, unloaded and your doors locked. Equally arguably, an officer could decide that IF your gun wasn't locked in a case out of sight, it was not fulfilling HIS idea of the statute requiring "locked within the vehicle" and decide you needed to hash it out with a judge.

Talk to a Washington attorney.

 

[Doug M.]

FWIW, although my snap answer is not "legal advice", and I am not the OP's lawyer nor do I intend to create an attorney-client relationship, nor should he think that there is one (I feel obligated to put in these broad words of disclaimer, especially with what I am about to say), I am an attorney admitted to practice in Washington (state) since 1993.

I gave a snap answer, but I am reasonably confident it is a decent SWAG on the relevant issues in Washington law. I am not now engaged in private practice generally, but restrict my practice to consulting activities with my co-author on LE operational law. I have somewhere around 12 years of experience as a prosecutor in this state, handling criminal matters with both juvenile and adult defendants in Superior Court, and also doing a variety of civil functions as a government attorney, including service as an LE agency legal advisor. I also was a part-time cop (w/full academy certificate) for roughly 15 years.

And having read through all that annoying disclaimer and credentials crud, I hope you all see why I rarely admit being a lawyer, or claim to have useful knowledge on specific issues. The potential exposure if someone were to make a claim of relying on my advice, thinking we had created any such relationship, and all that stuff, simply is not in my plans. (It would be a garbage claim, but I am not interested in a headbutt with the Bar.) There is a reason why we have another member whose signature tells us he is a lawyer, but "not your lawyer".

 

[Edge68]

From Kentucky Dave:

"So, while it appears to my unlicensed-as-a-lawyer eye that your self described situation would wiggle on "locked within the vehicle". Arguably you are OK driving with your gun out of sight, unloaded and your doors locked. Equally arguably, an officer could decide that IF your gun wasn't locked in a case out of sight, it was not fulfilling HIS idea of the statute requiring "locked within the vehicle" and decide you needed to hash it out with a judge."

And the above gentlemen,,is what I am concerned about the most. Thankyou Dave and thankyou Doug, and all that participated in my question. I have read a few topics in this forum, and I like what I see so far. Have a great day.
Edge

 

[CowboyKen]

Nevada:

IANAL and nothing here is legal advise!
================================
NRS: CHAPTER 202 - CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY
NRS 202.3653 Definitions. As used in NRS 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive, unless the context otherwise requires:
1. "Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun which is carried upon a person in such a manner as not to be discernible by ordinary observation.
=======================================

In Nevada: It is OK to have a handgun, loaded or not, anywhere in your vehicle as long as it is not concealed on your person (unless you have a permit that is recognized by Nevada). You may not have a long gun loaded (a round in the chamber) in a vehicle. This is under the hunting statutes and there are exceptions.

In Nevada there is no law restricting open carry and, therefore, it is legal to open carry.

Technically, if you pick up that bag, with your handgun in it, and carry it you are carrying a concealed handgun and, if you do not have a valid permit, you are committing a felony.

Good luck.

Ken

 

[eveled]

Probably a moot point, (you may have your reasons not to), but I would get the CC licensee if I were you.

 

[40calmike]

As for carrying thru multiple different states. Isn't there a federal law "peaceable journey"? I know in some states ILL being our neighbor. Bullets or gun in glove box and the other in trunk or out of reach of passengers or driver. Illinois now has there very own concealed carry. But you have to live there to get a permit. Also I think you are supposed to enter and leave the state in the same day for the peaceable journey deal.

 

[steelslaver]

State to state. Here in Montana, you can have a loaded gun anywhere in your car or whatever without a permit unless it is concealed upon your person. Plus, you only need a permit while in a town, village or the like. No permit needed to carry upon you person while engaged in a lawful outdoor activity like going for a walk if outside a town. Montana also accepts any other states permit. Joke is although I have a permit, I seldom carry concealed because crime in basically nonexistent where I live.

 

[SMSgt]

In FL, no. Don't know about WA, but don't people with guns generally transport them in cases, like going to a range, going hunting, etc.? No difference. Did it all the time when I lived in WA. Except I never got pulled over and that's the key point.

 

[wittmeba]

I may eventually get myself in trouble but I just separate the ammo (sorta) from the guns. The reason: I have a pickup without a cover over the back. I'm not going to put either in the back if the weather looks questionable.

We also have an SUV - again no way to do more than separate the ammo from the guns other than guns in the back seat and ammo inside the rear hatch door.


I recall another forum member (either here or Firearmstalk.com) sending Ken Cuccinelli the question regarding vehicle carry and his opening words were "It is my opinion...". I thought what the heck! If the law is so confusing wouldn't they rewrite it so the average person might understand it?

See "Response" in this link:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/VAAGAdvisoryOPFirearmsInVehicles.pdf