Legality of aftermarket trigger parts

[Silversmok3]

i wouldnt worry about it. a justifiable shot is just that no matter what the pull weight of your trigger is. Just like using reloads for defensive ammo. Some people say thats a NO NO but, I trust my handloads alot more than factory ammo.

All respect, but that determination is NOT up to you!

Even in pro-gun states there are pockets of leftist administration.I live in one of the most 2A friendly states in America, but I cannot vouch for the political affiliation of every DA in the state.I'm certain there are liberal prosecutors in Texas just like there are in NJ and NY.These are the people who will decide whether your shooting was justified or not.

Get attacked by a perp in some parts in America and you will be on thin legal ice pulling a gun to begin with.Don't fall through it and drown in the depths of financial debt and prison because you had to tote that 3.5lb Glock with you.

 

[RussC]

This one topic baffles me on how people alter/ modify CCW pistols and not worry about the legal ramifications. My opinion, the less that the lawyers need to use against me in a self defense situation the better. I would never alter or modify any pistols I carry CCW and I would suggest that to anyone that does.

If you want to modify/alter / bling bling your competition pistols or range pistols, that's one thing, but a CCW firearms to protect your life and family I would never touch or alter the trigger. Just leave it stock. That's why pistols like DAO or with safeties are made so you don't get into a " Ooops!!!" situation.

Just my thoughts.

Rotty

I agree. I watched a YouTube video of a guy removing the safety on the Shield. It is obvious if you had an accidental discharge the removal of the safety would be mentioned in court only 1000 times in the same sentence as reckless and careless.

If the case is being argued if you shot someone in self defense it would in my opinion be a stretch to argue modifying a CCW is proof it wasn't justified but I would not rule out an attorney in a self defense case attempting to portray the shooter as a person with little regard for life mention as supporting evidence the shooter packing a loaded gun with the safety removed.

Russ

P.S. I served on a jury where the accused was being tried for possession of a firearm while on probation which in my state is a big no no. The firearm was a single shot shotgun with a sawed off barrel. Multiple times during the case we the jury were reminded it was illegal to saw off the barrel. The issue was did he have possession of a firearm and the sawing off of the gun barrel had zero to do with the charge but the prosecuting attorney wanted us to know in my opinion we were dealing with a person willing to break the law in more ways than one.

I bring this up because attorneys will argue gun modifications just like my sawed off example if it will strengthen their case.

 

[gnystrom]

The issue here is not "legality". There is nothing in the law, as far as I know, that says you have to have a certain trigger pull weight. The issue is, can opposing counsel accuse you of having a too-light trigger pull, and claim you unintentionally shot someone?
Jim

You are absolutely correct. I should probably said "defend-ability"

I am sure ANY mods to a gun would certainly not help your case in court if the prosecution knew about them. Thus costing me more money for lawyer time and possibly putting my defense in jeopardy.

Anyone have a IWB holster for a Hammerly SP20?

 

[Edd Harbin]

This is a "Urban Myth" , only exist in opinion's . And just like ---holes , everyone has one !

 

[sbeatty1983]

All respect, but that determination is NOT up to you!

Even in pro-gun states there are pockets of leftist administration.I live in one of the most 2A friendly states in America, but I cannot vouch for the political affiliation of every DA in the state.I'm certain there are liberal prosecutors in Texas just like there are in NJ and NY.These are the people who will decide whether your shooting was justified or not.

Get attacked by a perp in some parts in America and you will be on thin legal ice pulling a gun to begin with.Don't fall through it and drown in the depths of financial debt and prison because you had to tote that 3.5lb Glock with you.

I would love to see a case anywhere in America where the legality of a shoot was determined by a trigger job. If I am forced to shoot someone, what difference does it make if I shoot him with my 1911 with a 4lb pull or my 686 with a 9lb pull

 

[crofoot629]

There's a lawyer attached to every round you fire already.

Clearly other factors in the shooting will be more important than your aftermarket trigger.

I have no doubt my years of training in lethal force as a sworn LEO, the six Thunder Ranch classes, and the log book I keep of nearly weekly range training trips, and the facts of the case along with what I say after the shooting, will be far more important than the 3.5 Lbs trigger of my Wilson Combat that was at one time my certified off duty weapon.

Your mileage may very.

Emory

 

[texas48]

4 lb trigger is not a hair trigger. Most 1911 out of the box are lighter. What is the trigger weight on a cocked and locked 1911 SA trigger?
In most states the shooter is liable for any injury to a innocent 3rd party. A lighter trigger helps with accuracy. I do not place my finger on the trigger unless I intend to fire. I have said this before it depends on where u live. In Texas the law states that if it is a good shoot the shooter has immunity from Civil Suits by the perp and his family. With the logic used about stock trigger if you put Apex springs in you J frame taking it from 12 to 8 pounds result in a lawsuit. If so have a good attorney. You are going to get sued no matter what you use. Would a 12 gauge be too much gun to stop a threat.
I don't expect to change any minds because I no longer carry in NY. I do know Texas law and no where in the law mentions altered firarms , trigger weight , night sights size of magazines, safeties or type of ammunition how much you practice.
If I lived in a left wing liberal state on either of the Coasts I may be concerned, but that gets me back to my premise that it matters more where you live and what the politics of your local DA is. Pro or anti gun rights.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[gnystrom]

court case link (People v. Superior Court (Du) (1992) 5 CA4th 822)
Basically, what happened was Mrs. Du shot Latasha Harlins with a 38 S&W revolver. Part of Mrs. Du's defense claim was that she didn't know of the "hair trigger" the gun supposedly had.

The entire court case is long, so I'll post the relevant parts here.(Emphasis mine)

Here is what their supposed expert whitness said for the record. I am quite disappointed in their whitness.
David Butler, a Los Angeles Police Department ballistics expert, testified extensively about the gun, a Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolver with a two-inch barrel. In summary, he testified that the gun had been altered crudely and that the trigger pull necessary to fire the gun had been drastically reduced. Also, both the locking mechanism of the hammer and the main spring tension screw of the gun had been altered so that the hammer could be released without putting much pressure on the trigger. In addition, the safety mechanism did not function properly.



The part of the court's opinion regarding this is here.
The court commented at sentencing that it did not "believe that Mrs. Du would be here today if the gun that she grabbed for protection had not been altered." The court elaborated: "This was a gun that had been stolen from the Du family and had been returned to them shortly before the shooting. The court has been presented with no evidence, and I do not believe that Mrs. Du knew that the gun had been altered in such a way as to ... make it an automatic weapon with a hairpin trigger. Ordinarily a .38 revolver is one of the safest guns in the world. Ordinarily, a woman Mrs. Du's size would have to decide consciously to pull the trigger and exert considerable strength to do so, but that was not true of the gun used to shoot Latasha Harlins. I have serious questions in my mind whether this crime would have been committed at all but for the altered gun."

Ultimately she got probation for her acts....

 

[Edd Harbin]

All she had to do was not put her finger on the trigger and no "Bang,Bang" . She got off easy . The minute you put finger to trigger amd pull , no matter how light , yuo pulled trigger not trigger pulled finger . She and her lawyer were idiot's . Either you meant to pull trigger and it was a good shoot , or no matter what "oops ,I din't mean too " iit was a bad shoot and your fault . Mrs. Du made a decision to pull trigger , light or not . Anouther thing what safety device is on a .38 revolver , and how was turned into an aotomatic wepon . Again the court or "judge" whom made statement is a defacto "Idiot " . No way the gun was an "automatic wepon " , and there are no manual safties .

 

[g_conway]

If you admit in court to "intentionally firing the weapon," it should not make any difference at trial. This does NOT mean the opposing lawyer will not attemp to use it against you, just that it should not affect outcome with a reasonable jury.

If it is an "accidental discharge," by you or a third party, I would think the posability of being found at fault will increase. Aftermarket parts do not guarantee you will lose anything, but they do provide a focused point of attack to a lawyer.

I have the APEX DCAEK kit in my defense gun. So obviously I am not very concerned about it.

 

[ken158]

+1 for G Conway and Edd H - if you intended to pull the trigger then who cares if your trigger was smooth, light or in any other manner made to function as to give you a reliable trigger pull thereby increasing your accuracy. IF you had an AD - then you have opened the door. I know of more AD's with a Glock by LE than with any other firearms combined.

hair-trigger - Its underlying meaning is something that may be triggered with the pressure of something as slight as a hair. Got one of these?

 

[texas48]

It seems we are giving far too much credit to attorneys here...

I know here in Montana the first thing the DA is going to do is strip the gun down and see if any after market parts are in the gun...............


(and then order a set for themselves)

Randy

Same thing probably would happen here in Texas.

 

[texas48]

Don't see any responses to my earlier question regarding the pull weight of a cocked and locked 1911 SA trigger. Seems no one wants to answer that one.
All those on this thread screaming that a DA only trigger that is modified from 6 to 4 lbs are going to be immediately incarcerated and you will be someone's girl friend at state prison.
I'll bet that Clinton Smith carriers a 1911 pistol with a SA trigger at 3 lbs or less. In fact Clinton Smith disdained plastic striker fired pistols in articles that he has authored that I have read. Huge proponent of 1911 handguns. I could be wrong.

 

[gnystrom]

The question is not to the weight or smoothness of a trigger, it is, did the shooter modify it incorrectly thus creating a situation where something resulted that should not have? Posted in this forum in the last couple of days were at least two different members that had put in aftermarket trigger parts in their M&P's that they stated caused a second unplanned discharge on the recovery shot. Shooter error maybe, but I would like to be the lawyer in a case like that. As a RSO and bullseye competitor, I have seen two 1911's either go full auto or double fire in the hands of champion bullseye shooters. Parts failures or touchy triggers, the law may not care. I am not trying to start an argument or stop people from buying aftermarket parts. As I stated, I have far more guns with trigger work than not. I am just asking what can happen. Maybe the people that can answer this question best are, Apex, Powder River, Springer, or Volquartzen.

 

[Nakanokalronin]

Don't see any responses to my earlier question regarding the pull weight of a cocked and locked 1911 SA trigger. Seems no one wants to answer that one.
All those on this thread screaming that a DA only trigger that is modified from 6 to 4 lbs are going to be immediately incarcerated and you will be someone's girl friend at state prison.
I'll bet that Clinton Smith carriers a 1911 pistol with a SA trigger at 3 lbs or less. In fact Clinton Smith disdained plastic striker fired pistols in articles that he has authored that I have read. Huge proponent of 1911 handguns. I could be wrong.

Depends on the manufacture and model, but the average is around 5-6 pounds. I agree and mentioned the SA pull on a 1911 and a DAO pull on others guns in my earlier posts. Stock trigger pull weights can vary from 3-20 pounds +/- on many guns.

From an earlier poster talking about a trial that involved a sawed off shotgun. Not only was the guy in possession of a firearm when he wasn't suppose to be, but the modification done to the shotgun was illegal since he had no stamp to do so. Smoothing out or lightening a trigger pull slightly is not illegal , possessing an illegal NFA item when your not suppose to have a firearm in the first place sure is though.

 

[VMaxSplat]

Don't see any responses to my earlier question regarding the pull weight of a cocked and locked 1911 SA trigger. Seems no one wants to answer that one.

Honestly, its an apples to oranges comparison... The 1911 is a totally different design and has other safety features (thumb, grip safeties). You are also comparing design differences to "home brew mods". Sorry, not the same thing. BTW, my 1911s have stock triggers too.

In most cases, I seriously doubt trigger mods will cause legal issues in the aftermath of a justified defensive shooting. They could though, and the stock M&P trigger is plenty good enough for a defensive pistol for the majority of users.

 

[Lost Lake]

The key is

Does it give the other attorney anything at all to try and turn the jury against you?

Think of it this way, the prosecutor could spend an extra 2 days because you modified your gun. He could go after the 'accidental' shooting because you lightened your trigger, he could go after the 'careless shooter', he could go after the 'reckless man who knows more than the manufacturer'.

Either way, when lawyers spend time discussing your case, it costs you a LOT of money.

I believe it is best to leave it stock or have the factory modify it. I also took the mag safety out of one of my carry guns, so I'm not as clean as I could be.

Do any cops lighten their triggers? Will their departments authorize it?

 

[Vagrant]

I guess none of you guys have had the pleasure of living in the People's Republic of Massachusetts where all of our newer guns come with 10+ lbs triggers.

 

[texas48]

I will say again 4 to 4.5 lb triggers are hardly hair triggers or considered a competition race gun.

After market parts like the Apex hard sear and UTB took my Shield from 6.8 lbs to 4.3 lbs. Apex springs took my j frame from 11.7 lbs to 7.9 lbs.. Both mods improve accuracy.My Glocks are at 4.4 4.6 and 4.5 lbs. With 3.5 rocket connectors and polished internals and a 6lb striker spring.
I would not carry my shield or any firearm that I have not completely tested with at least 300 to 500 rounds thru it and over 150 on rapid fire mode.

In my opinion 1st shot accuracy is paramount in SD situation and knowing what the capabilities of yourself and the weapon will do.

The effect of Adrenaline dump in a critical situation varies with each individual and know one knows what the effect will be in any situation.

In 35 years of shooting I have not come across a hand gun with a 20 lb trigger pull. I would not carry that gun because in my opinion It would be more dangerous to fire a handgun with that extreme a trigger pull than one with a 4 lb. Trigger, Simply due to the inherent in accuracy that would result for most shooters with that heavy a pull for all but the most accomplished shooters. My shield has 3 mechanical safeties so I don't buy the apples and oranges comparing a 1911 vs striker fired weapons in an SD situations.

We have been taking about trigger weights and moded guns here. Most 1911's In SA mode I have fired have a pull of under 4 pounds. The heaviest I have encountered was my issue 1911 I was issued in the military. For what its worth I was a RS NCO for more than 3 years and small arms repair specialist while serving in the military.

As for the remark on the NFA shot gun nothing I posted suggested a less than legal 18.5 inch barrel.

I will reitterate that a DA's political motivations and the handgun LAWS in the STATE where you live have more to do with the potential liabilities you face than the modification of your firearm with a justifiable shoot.

Stopping a threat with the fewest shots fired is the highest priority one should have in a SD situation , not worrying of what caliber, trigger weight , what sights you use (laser , night sights) you have available. If you have to worry about anything it should be if you are using a weapon to stop an uninstigated threat SD soon as possible.

I pity those who live in places a criminals rights are more important than our constitutional rights and the God given right to protect ourselves and our loved ones from those that would do us harm.

I pray that I never have to use my weapon for that purpose.


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[EvilBetty]

As many above have said it's not an issue of legality, it's an issue of credibility and intent in court.

If it's alleged to be an accidental shooting, you could have problems if you lightened the trigger. If the gun is altered in such a way (various and up to interpretation) that it makes it easier for the opposing council to paint you as a vigilante or mall ninja, you could have problems.

If your simply smoothing out the trigger and lightening it to a "reasonable degree" I don't see how it could come into play.

My personal preference is to have a heavier, yet smooth trigger on my carry gun. But if I was in a situation where I needed to defend myself, and all I had was my competition M&P with me, I wouldn't have any concern defending that in court.