Legality question

[Mbrgr1]

Hypothetical question:


You buy a revolver made in the 1930s from one of the cheaper brands like H&R, IJ or others, listed as having "a worn out barrel"


After careful consideration you realize the 6" barrel is not worn out, it was made with no rifling perhaps as a store keeper's gun for rats or whatever, it is chambered in 38 S&W (not special).


I'm assuming you have purchased an AOW according to the ATF and it is considered a shotgun with a barrel shorter than 16" and is illegal to own and cannot be retroactively registered as such.


Can you just leave the original barrel on it and call it "worn out"?



If not, can you unscrew the barrel and replace it with a rifled barrel making the gun legal to own?


If you keep the original barrel unattached but serialized to the gun, with the gun is it legal to own?


Can you sell the gun with the original barrel unattached and be legal?


This all considering there are no records to say one way or the other as to the original spec on the gun.



Thanks!

 

[glenwolde]

To my knowledge unless the BATFE has specifically exempted that revolver it's "Any Other Weapon".

Firearms Guide - Identification of Firearms - Section 8 | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Wheelgun Wednesday: Smoothbore Colt Revolvers of Exhibition Shooters -The Firearm Blog

I don't know the exemption process, but I imagine your example would be granted one.

 

[shocker]

According to one of the quoted sources....
A 3" pattern at 20 yds with birdshot and a smoothbore pistol?

 

[colt_saa]

While AOW would be the correct category, it is not a shotgun with a barrel shorter then 16 inches, that would be a SBS. It is classified as a smoothbore pistol

This is only if it was already on the NFA registry.

I had a similar instance with a H&R Handigun that was made before the National Firearms Act of 1929 and never properly papered after the act passed. Once it got handed down to me, I realized what it was.

While I hated to disturb the .410 barrel, I wanted a lawful firearm. So I sent it off to a barrel maker that rifled it for me for a very reasonable fee and in a very short period of time.

I guess I had this done quite a long time ago as I have E-mails going back 6 years and can not find the name of the barrel maker that helped me. When I get home tonight I will see if I kept the receipt

 

[2152hq]

If not ever registered as an NFA Weapon (Not in the NFA Registry),,the handgun with a bbl that is smoothbore (not worn-out smooth looking),,is contraband.

If no one is looking and no one is asking,,and you had such a handgun and a rifled replacement bbl for it,,,replacing the smoothbore bbl with the rifled bbl would make an entirely legal handgun out of it.

Rifling the existing smoothbore bbl would do the same. (relining, sleeving techniques can make it happen though $$ may be more than the gun is worth).

Possession of the handgun w/o any barrel on it what so ever is not illegal.
I personally would not keep that ser#'d smooth bore barrel around in the same drawer with it however.
Get a good replacement bbl for the gun and installed.

Now,,,,If you are a gambling sort,,you can contact the BATF Technology Division. They are the last word on oddities and exemption of certain firearms from NFA regulations.

There is a possibility,,but no guarantee, that they might decide the revolver is an original smooth bore mfg from the maker (who ever it may be) and grant an exemption for that individual revolver by serial number and firearm description.
That would place that particular gun into the Type I C&R Firearm classification and exempt from NFA regs.

They would need the revolver itself for inspection at their facility (Virginia?).
If it does in fact pass their inspection and is granted that exeption, it will be returned to you along with a letter from the BATF explaining the exemption for that firearm. Plus the gun will be listed on the BATF C&R list as exempt from NFA regs by ser# and description.

IF the gun is deemed not an orig mfg smoothbore revolver made by the maker as such,,they will inform you of that,,confiscate the revolver and likely destroy it.

Those are just about all the choices you have.

A couple fairly easy ones and a somewhat complicated drawn out one that may not end well.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Another stupid ATF rule. But we expect that, right?

Note: It is not now nor was it ever a shotgun of any kind. By ATF definition a shotgun is designed to be fired from the shoulder.

But it's a measly $5.00 fee to get the tax stamp and be within the law. You can find a Class 3 FFL dealer and he can submit the paperwork and fee and then you can await the time with patience until your request should be made known to the ATF and its answer returned. The answer will be thank you, here's your documentation, go forth and sin no more.

Firearms Guide - Identification of Firearms - Section 8 | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

If your FFL is someone you trust then leave the gun with him and do the 4473 paperwork or whatever forms you need to complete to make the transaction clear.

I am not making this up nor am I winging it - this is the precise procedure that I used with my Class III FFL to make the gem below "legal" and I owned it for decades before I got around to it. My FFL actually wrote a serial number into the interior of the leather in order to properly identify the item for AOW purposes.

As I read the comments above I realize that folks are trying to be helpful and to keep your within the law but the easiest solution is to pay for the AOW tax stamp. Don't tinker with the gun; it's not worth it legally and it's not worth it from any particular value standpoint.

 

[Mbrgr1]

Another stupid ATF rule. But we expect that, right?

Note: It is not now nor was it ever a shotgun of any kind. By ATF definition a shotgun is designed to be fired from the shoulder.

But it's a measly $5.00 fee to get the tax stamp and be within the law. You can find a Class 3 FFL dealer and he can submit the paperwork and fee and then you can await the time with patience until your request should be made known to the ATF and its answer returned. The answer will be thank you, here's your documentation, go forth and sin no more."




So my understanding that the gun cannot be retroactively registered is incorrect? ($200) All collector value aside.



I kind of like the idea of getting it on the C&R list, they are not making 38 S&W shot shells anymore!


Thanks.

 

[reccpd101]

ISCS Yoda, what is that firearm? All I can see is a wallet with a trigger.

 

[2152hq]

Another stupid ATF rule. But we expect that, right?

Note: It is not now nor was it ever a shotgun of any kind. By ATF definition a shotgun is designed to be fired from the shoulder.

But it's a measly $5.00 fee to get the tax stamp and be within the law. You can find a Class 3 FFL dealer and he can submit the paperwork and fee and then you can await the time with patience until your request should be made known to the ATF and its answer returned. The answer will be thank you, here's your documentation, go forth and sin no more.

Firearms Guide - Identification of Firearms - Section 8 | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

If your FFL is someone you trust then leave the gun with him and do the 4473 paperwork or whatever forms you need to complete to make the transaction clear.

I am not making this up nor am I winging it - this is the precise procedure that I used with my Class III FFL to make the gem below "legal" and I owned it for decades before I got around to it. My FFL actually wrote a serial number into the interior of the leather in order to properly identify the item for AOW purposes.

As I read the comments above I realize that folks are trying to be helpful and to keep your within the law but the easiest solution is to pay for the AOW tax stamp. Don't tinker with the gun; it's not worth it legally and it's not worth it from any particular value standpoint.

I still contend that an 'Unregistered NFA weapon' is contraband and cannot be 'Registered' even by a Class7 FFl.
Even 'Unserviceable' have to be Registered though they transfer when sold w/o the payment of the Stamp Tax. Some it's $200, others it's only $5

Refering to the BATF's NFA Handbook

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-atf-p-53208/download

...'Section 3.3 Status of Unregistered Firearms ' reads...

Firearms not lawfully registered as required by the NFA may not be registered and legitimized by their
possessors.
They are contraband and unlawful to possess.
However, see Section 2.4 for information
on removing NFA firearms from the scope of the NFA because of their status as collectors’ items,
modification, or elimination of certain component parts.

The above is the info I am refering to.
'Firearms' in this Handbook are defined as NFA Weapons.
The deffinition(s) and descriptions are also in the handbook w/ drawings and specs.



I don't know what the FFL did to make the AOW wallet holster 'legal'. I can't speak to that.

The Wallet Holster AOW is a strange one on the list.
It was added as it falls into the catagory or 'disguised firearms'.
The others in the catagory are things like a pen-gun, lighter gun, etc.
The holster or the handgun alone are just that,,a holster and a handgun. Nothing NFA involved.
Place the handgun inside the 'wallet' and the handgun being able to be fired while inside the wallet,,the entire package is an NFA 'AOW'.

Place a handgun inside a a mitten or a paper bag and fire it,,it's not an AOW.

I suspect there is some method to register A wallet holster with A handgun to complete an AOW package.
That's why the ser# of the pistol was added onto the wallet holster to match the set.
The wallet holster mfg'rs still continue to make and sell the individual holsters. They wouldn't if there wasn't some way for the customers to make them NFA legal. Some people like it that way.


You can make a brand new NFA weapon (SBR, SBS, etc) even as a non FFL.
You have to first submit the proper BATF Form(s) which explain what you want to build or modify. Include your $200 for the Stamp Tax NFA mfg'r fee.
When they OK it, then you can go ahead and make what you have proposed,,,not before then.
No full auto's builds for a non-FFL.

 

[Beemerguy53]

Every federal agency (ATF, IRS, DHS, FDA, etc.) has Inspectors and Agents who enforce the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) provisions under which that agency operates. And how those federal regulations are interpreted is almost entirely up to the local regulators. They can be as strict or as lenient as their Special Agent in Charge or their Director dictates.

I had a situation a while back wherein a local gunsmith obliterated or covered over the serial number of a pistol he refinished for me. When I got the gun home, and realized the S/N was gone, I was horrified, for I knew that my mere possession of that pistol was a clear and serious violation of federal law. The ramifications of this made me sick to my stomach.

I decided that the only way to handle the situation was to be totally honest and upfront. I emailed my local ATF Field Office immediately, told them exactly what happened, and offered to surrender the firearm to them.

An ATF investigator contacted me, and made an appointment with me to examine the firearm. She came to my home, interviewed me, and looked the pistol over. She was very reassuring, thanked me for coming forward, and told me she would be in touch. She did not take the gun.

About a week later, she emailed me. After consulting with her boss, she offered to let me have a new, ATF-issued serial number engraved into the pistol, thus making it legal. I agreed, she issued the number, and I found a gunsmith (not the one who caused the problem) who could do the work.

(I know she interviewed the 'smith who obliterated the serial number; I do not know what, if any, action she took against him.)

If that Investigator thought I was trying to hide something or pull a fast one...or if her boss was more interested in pumping up his office's statistics than in being fair to me...this all could have ended up very, very differently.

Based on my experience, Mbrgr1, I would recommend you contact ATF and tell them exactly what you've told us on here. I'm sure they have a way to resolve your situation without taking your gun or putting you in the hoosegow...good luck!

 

[Mbrgr1]

So the fun begins!

Every federal agency (ATF, IRS, DHS, FDA, etc.) has Inspectors and Agents who enforce the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) provisions under which that agency operates. And how those federal regulations are interpreted is almost entirely up to the local regulators. They can be as strict or as lenient as their Special Agent in Charge or their Director dictates.

I had a situation a while back wherein a local gunsmith obliterated or covered over the serial number of a pistol he refinished for me. When I got the gun home, and realized the S/N was gone, I was horrified, for I knew that my mere possession of that pistol was a clear and serious violation of federal law. The ramifications of this made me sick to my stomach.

I decided that the only way to handle the situation was to be totally honest and upfront. I emailed my local ATF Field Office immediately, told them exactly what happened, and offered to surrender the firearm to them.

An ATF investigator contacted me, and made an appointment with me to examine the firearm. She came to my home, interviewed me, and looked the pistol over. She was very reassuring, thanked me for coming forward, and told me she would be in touch. She did not take the gun.

About a week later, she emailed me. After consulting with her boss, she offered to let me have a new, ATF-issued serial number engraved into the pistol, thus making it legal. I agreed, she issued the number, and I found a gunsmith (not the one who caused the problem) who could do the work.

(I know she interviewed the 'smith who obliterated the serial number; I do not know what, if any, action she took against him.)

If that Investigator thought I was trying to hide something or pull a fast one...or if her boss was more interested in pumping up his office's statistics than in being fair to me...this all could have ended up very, very differently.

Based on my experience, Mbrgr1, I would recommend you contact ATF and tell them exactly what you've told us on here. I'm sure they have a way to resolve your situation without taking your gun or putting you in the hoosegow...good luck!

So I contacted the Oklahoma City ATF today and told them my story, the gentleman I spoke to was very helpful although he is not an "old gun" guy.


He said from what I told him (model number, caliber designation etc) (Model of 1904) that he thought it was fine, but would have a field agent contact me.


I'm pretty fond of this gun, I have never seen another H&R with a numbered barrel, I'm sure they did that to make sure it did not end up on a rifled model and matched the cylinder which is bored straight through as well.


Fingers crossed, I will take some pics and post them if anyone is interested.


Thanks.

 

[oberon]

BATFE does not work for the legitimate, law-abiding citizen.
Take a look at that guy Chipman.........YEEESH!
Is it the guy who has a 70 year old oddball firearm who is the problem?
Or is it somebody else?
It would be a typical overreach to jam a guy up for a smoothbore pistol that was manufactured fair & square decades ago.
Truly, this is not what the framers had in mind when they were constructing the Constitution & the BOR.
God help us all....
Rant over.
My apologies.
I

 

[Muss Muggins]

Thankfully, we appear to have solved this problem. As always, the correct answer lies not with the conspiracy theorists, but with the actual agency in charge of regulating the matter. I wish the OP well. I love the history associated with these outliers, and those stories should not be lost for fear of (insert your own doom and gloom unsubstantiated I heard about it on the internet didn’t really happen but if I repeat it often enough it becomes true fable).

 

[outta_ammo]

Thankfully, we appear to have solved this problem. As always, the correct answer lies not with the conspiracy theorists, but with the actual agency in charge of regulating the matter. I wish the OP well. I love the history associated with these outliers, and those stories should not be lost for fear of (insert your own doom and gloom unsubstantiated I heard about it on the internet didn’t really happen but if I repeat it often enough it becomes true fable).

Amen brother!

 

[ISCS Yoda]

ISCS Yoda, what is that firearm? All I can see is a wallet with a trigger.

It is a High Standard .22 WMR derringer.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Without discussing the issue of contraband, this is an excellent question, which I have actually answered on this Forum before:

I don't know what the FFL did to make the AOW wallet holster 'legal'. I can't speak to that.

The Wallet Holster AOW is a strange one on the list.
It was added as it falls into the catagory or 'disguised firearms'.
The others in the catagory are things like a pen-gun, lighter gun, etc.
The holster or the handgun alone are just that,,a holster and a handgun. Nothing NFA involved.
Place the handgun inside the 'wallet' and the handgun being able to be fired while inside the wallet,,the entire package is an NFA 'AOW'.

Place a handgun inside a a mitten or a paper bag and fire it,,it's not an AOW.

And the key sentence in there is this:

The holster or the handgun alone are just that,,a holster and a handgun. Nothing NFA involved.

So, despite the fact that I had that gun inside that "wallet" for years, all I did was remove it from the wallet and deliver the wallet to a Class III dealer. Now I have a non-NFA derringer at home and he has a chunk of leather in his possession. No NFA violation exists and if one did it has become moot. The FFL then wrote a serial number into the leather wallet, I/we completed the paperwork necessary to make this item "registered" under the NFA, including paying the $5.00 "tax", and in due course we had the paperwork back from the ATF and the two items can be recombined INSIDE the NFA as opposed to violating the NFA.

Quite simple and, again, all we did was tell them the truth, to wit, the item existed as a non-NFA gun and a chunk of leather and we wanted to pay the tax so they could legally be put together.

Funny, sometimes it really does pay to tell the truth.