Less Felt Recoil With....

[TwoPoundPull]

In 38 special...
SP 101 x 2 1/4 bbl...
For significant other...

148gn HBWC 2.0gn Trail Boss @ 625fps / 15,100psi
-or-
158gn SWC 2.7gn Trail Boss @ 661fps / 11,400psi
as/per Hodgdon

Looks like less space in the case spikes pressure with less powder charge...How will it feel in her hands...

Thanks...2#

 

[Titegroups]

Both those loads should be very light, I think the 148 will be lighter, I don't see either as a SD load. They may not be very accurate, may tumble early. I wouldn't shoot a dog with one much less a human if that's your intention. Plug those number into an energy calculator and find they less than a .22 rifle.

 

[Alk8944]

In 38 special...
SP 101 x 2 1/4 bbl...
For significant other...

148gn HBWC 2.0gn Trail Boss @ 625fps / 15,100psi
-or-
158gn SWC 2.7gn Trail Boss @ 661fps / 11,400psi
as/per Hodgdon

Looks like less space in the case spikes pressure with less powder charge...How will it feel in her hands...

Thanks...2#

TPP,

Don't believe the velocities the source stated! Here are some real world chronograph results, with much higher charge weights!:

168 gr SWC (358429), 4.5 gr. TB, 2" barrel @ 80 degrees; 655 FPS

Same as above, 4" barrel; 711 FPS

158 gr RNFP (358655), 4.2 gr. TB, 2" barrel @ 80 degrees; 649 FPS

Same as above, 4" barrel; 734 FPS

Note the 4.5 gr is very lightly compressed, the 4.2 is just to the bullet base. These were simply a test to see if T.B. would duplicate factory loads, it won't. These are all significantly lower in recoil, and velocity, than factory 158 gr. LRN. The loads you show are so light you may not even know you are shooting the gun!

 

[Titegroups]

+1 on above, those velocities would be what I would expect from that charge weight in 231 or titegroup, etc, but not for high volume trail boss. At one time I shot cowboy action and did a lot of testing with very low charge weights. Remember energy is calculated using the square of velocity.

 

[snubbiefan]

I know this load is ridiculous....but it works for the wife. The lighter the slug the less recoil it will deliver. I load the wife a 105-grain cast LSWC slug over 2 grains of Bullseye. I don't care if it tumbles, I don't care if it key-holes, I don't care if you can barely cover the pattern with your hand at 7-yards. What I do care about is that it beats a 22, she can shoot them with ease and kill a coffee-can at 15-feet all day long with her Model 38-2 Airweight.

We all know that heavier slugs will generate more recoil, especially in a light purse-carry gun. OP....try loading-up a lighter slug and let the significant other try that. If nothing else....it may help work her up to commercial wadcutters or more "standardish" loads.

 

[venomballistics]

I dont get it. when us guys feel we want a gun, say a 45. we dont get a 22, we get a 45 and fire it with full house loads. The ladies can do the same. Give em that much credit rather than doing them the disservice of establishing useless and potentially dangerous baselines within their understanding of handguns.
When I taught my wife to shoot, I put a 1911 in her hands, gave her three shooting stances to work with and left her to figure it out. In a clutch, she's going to effectively use full power 45 against her attacker because that is what she knows.
I'm seeing some low velocities here ... knock it off.
if a bullet lodges in the bore, just because YOU might understand what happened well enough to catch it, does not mean she will. and you can bet she will fire it again.

 

[snubbiefan]

Unfortunately.....not all women are mountain climbers, routinely sheer sheep, or participate in calf roping and weight-lifting. Maybe the scared ones don't need guns at all....that's a possibility.

Some women are not a "real man", so we do for them what we think is best and safe. I have no idea of the velocity of my hand-loads. I have no idea of the knock-down power either. I do know that a light slug affords less recoil and it takes less powder to cause the slug to get out of a 1-7/8 inch barrel gun. I can't count the number of light-loaded Alox lubed 105 grain slugs I have put down range and I have never stuck one yet. BUT....you can bet that I have taught her what a squib load is and I give her enough credit to understand what to do. You can get a squib load in a fresh factory round as well.....or even a double throw and blow-up a gun.

Danger and chances lurk under ever bush and we all make our own decisions about how to handle it.

 

[venomballistics]

Mine is a far cry from a mountain climber, shes a pianist and a marshmallow in every sense.
She won't touch my 12 Ga and I won't push it on her either.
When she wanted to try a 30-06 that is exactly what she had in her hands and nothing less, no sugar coating, no coddling. For that, she has determined it to be her personal limit for recoil and she can use it to full effect as well. She knows exactly what that rifle is all about, business. She also fully understands what the 1911 is all about, again, its business. For the pleasure end of things, I got her a Henry Big Boy in 357. again its fed full house ammo. The weight of the rifle tames it to a thoroughly enjoyable thunder kitten that still retains the full potential of the cartridge.
they look to us because they don't know. Love them enough to give them the truth

 

[kentguy]

TwoPoundPull,
I think your on the right track here. If she already hasen't - let her shoot those loads and work your way up with her. Let her tell you what is too much and what is fine.

My son and I did this with his girlfriend (she is a real girly-girl), but wanted to learn to shoot. So we started her on some "mouse-fart" type loads and after working our way up to loads that set her back a step or twoo - she setteled in on a just above middle of the road load. Much more than I would have picked for her but that is what she felt most comfortable with, and shoots just fine. With a little pratice... watch out.

Just my 2 cents here. Have fun and be safe

 

[MDaly]

Felt recoil is purely subjective and individual. No one can predict how another person will perceive how a specific load feels. It is possible to calculate recoil but that has nothing to do with how it will feel. Chamber pressure has nothing to do with either imperic, or calculated recoil nor felt recoil. There are only three ways to actually reduce recoil without changing the firearm. 1) use a lighter bullet and keep the velocity the same 2) reduce the velocity and keep the bullet weight the same. 3) do both 1&2.

MDaly

 

[venomballistics]

While I can appreciate kinder and gentler loading practices for the enjoyment of our arms in the long run. My little marshmallow of a girly girl wife isn't "half way there" she can handle full house loads with the best of them in calibers far exceeding 38.
She knows what a full house 44 mag will do, she don't like it much, but she knows what to expect from it, thus, will not scream and drop the gun if ever she needs it.
I can't say as she is an autonomous shooter, its something she enjoys with me. If some day she and her friends ever opt to hit the range without me and has to buy ammo because she forgot to bring some along. she will not face the humiliation of an unpleasant surprise because I lied to her at the reloading bench.
I gave her everything she needs to be a marksman. all the pieces are there for her to stand alone if she so chooses.
Thats the gift we want to give em .... right?

 

[snubbiefan]

venom....consider yourself lucky being an avid shooter and having a roommate that wants to get-in-the-game. Some of us are not so lucky and are probably trying too hard with our ladies. You can lead a horse to water.....but you can't make one drink was never any more applicable in this case.

 

[venomballistics]

venom....consider yourself lucky being an avid shooter and having a roommate that wants to get-in-the-game. Some of us are not so lucky and are probably trying too hard with our ladies. You can lead a horse to water.....but you can't make one drink was never any more applicable in this case.

the trick is never to let yourself misrepresent anything, kick back and watch the show. you can tell a whole lot from reactions. and don't laugh ... show proper technique and correct things before they put the hurt to her. blood and bruises aren't nearly as cute as the dead wrong technique leading up to it.
First time out all I had was a 44 with 3 loads, and full house 06 .. suffice to say I was ill prepared .. a wider range would have been preferable. Mind you none of the 3 loads for the 44 were light .. 225 grains at 1350 was the lightest.
I told her straight that it wouldn't break her but it was going to be a handful and they don't come much worse. First shot I had my hands on hers to maintain control after I felt her hands self correct I let her have at it she got through the rest of the 6 fairly well and she bravely accepted a reload rather than quit. last two shots were pretty wild but she went as far as she could with it. then on to the 06 which she did far better with out of the gate .. she made 30 empties to reload.
That being one of the earliest established baselines defining what she understands about guns made the 45 a relative cake walk and her 357 lever action a total non issue. Her confidence with arms was achieved in less than 100 rounds. Work down to a manageable caliber rather than up to an acceptable one, tell em like it is .. its easier.

 

[fredj338]

In 38 special...
SP 101 x 2 1/4 bbl...
For significant other...

148gn HBWC 2.0gn Trail Boss @ 625fps / 15,100psi
-or-
158gn SWC 2.7gn Trail Boss @ 661fps / 11,400psi
as/per Hodgdon

Looks like less space in the case spikes pressure with less powder charge...How will it feel in her hands...

Thanks...2#

Your assumption is incorrect. There is LESS volume inside the case w/ a full WC vs a SWC. SO pressures are higher. Also in a 2" bbl, knock off another 50fps min from the numbers you posted. GO too slow & you are liable to not stabilize the bullet in such a short bbl.

 

[TwoPoundPull]

This is Hodgdon's data, where is my "assumption" incorrect, I think we are saying the same thing. The wadcutter takes up more space or volume inside the case, leaving less space or volume for powder...
With less powder in less space, the pressure is higher than more powder in a larger space or volume, even with a heavier bullet...
The question is will that higher pressure result in more "Felt Recoil"
Trail Boss solved a powder placement issue that resulted in poor and inconsistent accuracy I had with 41, 44, and 45 colt when loading slow range ammo in large cases. Have not tried it in smaller cases, but I do believe it will shoot "softer" than 231 or Bullseye at lower velocities.
No question, I will start low and work up a powder charge that will be squib free and reasonably accurate at 25 to 30ft...Thats all she needs.

 

[Forrest r]

I see threads like this one all the time on the different shooting websites. There never seems to be a right answer to this debate. The only thing that keeps popping up in my mind every time I read these types of threads is bullet selection & caliber selection.

I've come to a simple conclusion that for some people it might be better to switch calibers rather than try to use a caliber that's extremely under powered. A 22mag would have the same felt recoil and the little 40g slug traveling at a lot higher velocity (1000fps+) would do far better than a 38spl with a 158g slug @ 600fps. The 22mag although not ideal by any means does have a loud report (a good thing), low recoil (a good thing), and does have the ability to penetrate & hit vital organs.

Another option would be to move up in caliber. A light 44spl has no more felt recoil than a light 38spl but the 44spl has a lot larger bullet (180g to 220g). I've lived with women in the past that were extremely recoil sensitive & it never bothered them to shoot light loads in either a snub nosed 38spl or a charter arms bullgog in 44spl. The 44spl will deliver a bigger payload with the same felt recoil.

Good luck

 

[Titegroups]

If you cant deal with recoil then buy a can of pepper spray.

 

[snubbiefan]

Forrest, you make a good point, but it's the efficiency-factor. In other words.....another gun has to be purchased in either case. The TP in the j-frame 22 also becomes problematic. It's easier to tame a trigger on a center-fire and we have to still bear in mind that we are talking about people that want to carry something that weighs nothing in their purse. The wife shoots the 686 with ease, but an Airweight, or Airlite is another matter altogether. She does have a 317 that I have worked the trigger on and she can shoot your eyes out with it. I just want to be able to carry one gun on trips that we both can shoot.

As far as pepper-spray if you can't shoot a 38. Why not just tell the next handicapped person you see in a wheelchair to go get a pair of legs.

 

[mikld]

Wemmens are as individual as men. Some deal with recoil some don't. There's a lady cashier at our local Ace Hardware (5'-1" if that) that Elk hunts every year and scores as well as the men do. She shoots a Marlin lever gun in 45-70 using hubby's hot handloads, and then there's my wife who will shoot her .22 and light .38 wadcutters, but doesn't even like to be near my Ruger SBH when I let off my "T-Rex Killers". I know men that flinch so bad with standard 38. Specials they can hardly keep their shots on paper. So, recoil control/sensitivity is as individual as the shooters that shoot 'em, and guarnteed, if you "force" someone to shoot a gun they feel has too much recoil, you'll make a NON-shooter real quick.

 

[fredj338]

This is Hodgdon's data, where is my "assumption" incorrect, I think we are saying the same thing. The wadcutter takes up more space or volume inside the case, leaving less space or volume for powder...
With less powder in less space, the pressure is higher than more powder in a larger space or volume, even with a heavier bullet...
The question is will that higher pressure result in more "Felt Recoil"
Trail Boss solved a powder placement issue that resulted in poor and inconsistent accuracy I had with 41, 44, and 45 colt when loading slow range ammo in large cases. Have not tried it in smaller cases, but I do believe it will shoot "softer" than 231 or Bullseye at lower velocities.
No question, I will start low and work up a powder charge that will be squib free and reasonably accurate at 25 to 30ft...Thats all she needs.

SOrry, you implied that the issue is less powder charge casues pressure increase & the point is the remaining space is less w/ the WC. SO maybe it's the way you typed it, that is how I read it. Pressure itself has NO affect on recoil. Recoil is mass x vel / gun wt. SO pressure is just not in that equation. I can get a gun to KB w/ a very high pressure but lwo vel load of uberfast burning powder. I can also get a round to go faster @ lower pressures w/ a large dose of slower burning powder & recoil will be quite noticeable.