Light Primer hits with M&P9

[Wolfiesden]

I am a 2nd hand owner of the M&P9. It supposedly came from gunsamerica and this posting appears to be identically worded from what he sent me as the title:
S&W 9mm M&P Internal Lock Magazine Safety Variant 17 + 1 Br for sale (989324717)

An Apex FSS trigger was installed by prior owner:
Apex Tactical Forward Set Sear Trigger Kit S&W M&P

This past weekend me and my 14y granddaughter hit an IDPA match. I was running my Sig P226 EE with 17# wolf hammer spring (standard is 20# I believe) and she the M&P9.

We both loaded from the same box of reloads (4.4g titegroup behind Berry's 115g and CCI 500 primer). My first stage was 100% solid, no FTF. Her first stage had about a 25% FTF with light primer strikes. I swear she had to kick out at least half her first mag on the ground.

My entire 6 stages went fine with zero FTFs out of the same ammo. I am pretty sure I burned up 100+rds with zero issues in the sig. She couldn't get 18 rounds off out of 2 mags and was dipping her 3rd mag on a stage that should have taken 2 max.

I had a pair of boxes of Freedom 115's new (not reloads) as a backup in my range bag. I had her run those in the 2nd and 3rd stage. She got one FTF out of those rounds. Again, a light strike.

First up I am going to pull the striker and douche out the channel very well and put a light coat of #9 on it. I still have 100 or so rounds from the reloads left so I can run tests later after some work.

These same or similar reloads have been run through 2 sigs, a glock, an xd and this M&P. Only the M&P is having issues. I have been told that CCI primers have a harder cup. But seriously, can that really bear on this issue?
Any additional thoughts on diagnosing this?

 

[federali]

Multiple problems?

I use Federal primers in my handguns as they are said to be softer. I did have failure to fire issues in my M&P .45 which I traced to slightly high primers. I've reported it before to help others. I now use a Sinclair primer pocket uniformer and I have not had a F-T-F since as each primer is properly seated.

However, the experience you're having is indicative of limp-wristing, which, added to hard primers that may also be seated slightly high, and you have three reasons for F-T-Fs.

 

[Bkreutz]

Agree with cleaning out the striker channel, but don't put any lube in there, the plastic liner does not need lube, lubing it will attract more carbon blowby and depending on what you use, it may adversely affect the plastic itself. On my competition gun I clean my striker channel monthly (about 4K rounds) and haven't had a light strike problem since I started doing that at around 20K rounds (70K on it now)

 

[Wolfiesden]

There are only two lubes I use. Froglube and Hoppies #9. Until I get all the problems ironed out on the M&P, its staying with Hoppies. My Sig is all froglubed and running like a sewing machine.

Anyway, thanks for the heads up on the striker lube. I usually lube up strikers and pins with the lightest touch. Just enough to hold back any moisture intrusion or rust. I will take your advice and clean but not lube and see if it helps at all. This is the first time I will get into the gun that deep since I picked it up. The former owner usually cleaned well too but its possible he may have lubed the channel.

I am not sure I agree with the limp-wrist issue. A limp-wrist issue would manifest itself as a failure to eject, not a failure to strike the primer. Hell, you should be able to lay the weapon on a table and depress the trigger with just a finger (without any grip on the frame) and it should detonate the primer. (HAZARDOUS! Do not do that!). All of the trigger mechanism is tensioned by a spring(s) and does not operate at all by recoil (or gas) or you wouldn't be able to fire the weapon!

The limp wrist may affect the chambering of the next round (or lack there of) if the slide fails traveling far enough (relative to the frame) to peel off another round from the mag but this was not her problem.

It could also affect the slide bringing the chamber into battery. I don't know if the M&P will even allow the striker to operate if its not in battery but I suppose I could try and test that. If its not in battery, then perhaps the primer hits could be affected due to lack of contact of the breech head and the cartridge head. But thats the only circumstance I can think of. For the life of me, I can't think of any other reason a weak grip would cause a light primer strike.

Also, if it were high primers, I would think that the substantially reduced hammer on my sig would also have issues. I dropped the spring down 3# from stock and it has no issues with primer strike depth. The reloads were done on a Hornady LnL ammo plant. I will look, but I am unsure if there is any sort of adjustment for depth. I deprime (using universal deprimer die), then tumble so the primer pockets are clean when a new primer is seated. I picked up all her dropped rounds. They were a mix of Freedom, Federal and Blazer cases so the problem isn't confined to one headstamp of case either.

I might add, she's not afraid of shooting so limp wrist is probably not in her nature. Shes a stocky girl and has a hell of a grip (she's doing strength training so she can play high school football next year, yea I know, I don't want her playing either but its her desire). Of my granddaughters, she is my big caliber girl. For example, here she is shooting my Barrett MRAD at 400yd...

Look at that forearm on her and tell me she's not gripping it pretty solidly.

And her 9yr old sister (now 10) shot the same M&P (prior to me acquiring the pistol) and it shot fine. If there was a limp wrist going to affect this pistol, its would have been here:

She is very petite, even at 10, her 8yr old sister is taller than her. Even so, she's worked her way up to a Rem 700 in .223 and prefers long guns (as do I).

Anyway, I do appreciate the feedback here and the suggestions as to what to look at. I will double check the primers, doesn't hurt to check, right . And I will haul her to the range and see if the FTFs change when she's shooting it vs me shooting it. Doubt it, but its worth examining.

 

[AGoyette]

My 9c went from good to trouble in practically an instant. It was a dirty striker channel. Cleaned it an no issues since.
We bought a used Core that had the Apex competition kit in it. Had issues after issues. Lots of stove pipes, light primer hits, FTE, etc. Determined it was the gun and not mags or ammo. Swapped out the competition kit for the FSS kit and it now runs perfectly. Zero issues.
So based on experience, I would say it is a dirty striker channel or something with the Apex parts installed. Love Apex parts, have them in all my guns, but there was something funky going on with the CORE that we bought that had them installed. Hope this helps.

 

[hardluk1]

I wonder if it also has a stock striker spring on a lighter apex or wolf aftermarket spring?? Put in a new stock weight spring. I to like federal primers but cci fires well with stock striker spring.

 

[1hatchet]

QUOTE]

Always nice to see youth out shooting, but do not forget safety, Eye Protection.

 

[Wolfiesden]

Always nice to see youth out shooting, but do not forget safety, Eye Protection. [/QUOTE]

Van wears them during IDPA matches and usually with the long guns. I didn't notice until later (after the photo) that she had them off and laying under the towel in the foreground. Thats me in the background spotting.

The little one is impossible to find safety glasses for. Everything I buy is too big(wide) and hurts her with muffs to the point she won't go shooting. She has ear problems like her mom and can't take the foam or gel plugs due to her ear canals. So, until I can find a narrow enough set (and yea, I have looked at all the box stores like Cabela's, Gander, Fleet-Farm, Walmart, etc and places like Nachez and Midway) I have to choose, ears or eyes. Eyes are a maybe problem, couple trigger pulls and she's deaf. Glasses made for kids offer no protection and probably form more of a hazard due to shattering than providing protection.

I would love to find a small set of safety glasses her size so if you got some leads I have yet to explore, feel free to throw me a PM and I will see if they got something small enough for her.

 

[robkarrob]

I agree with making sure you have a new stock striker spring. Then you can clean the striker and bore. Do not lube, the nylon serves to keep the striker moving properly.

Bob

 

[MyDads38]

2 possible suggestions for safety glasses would be:

1) Maybe check in the tool section/hardware dept. for smaller safety glasses. Possibly something smaller there.

2) I wear prescription safety glasses for work, so you may be able to get safety lens from an inexpensive eye glass/eye doctor without being prescription. Maybe Walmart?

Glad the girls like to shoot and spend time with you! That's a great thing

 

[Llando88]

Agree with cleaning out the striker channel, but don't put any lube in there, the plastic liner does not need lube, lubing it will attract more carbon blowby and depending on what you use, it may adversely affect the plastic itself. On my competition gun I clean my striker channel monthly (about 4K rounds) and haven't had a light strike problem since I started doing that at around 20K rounds (70K on it now)

Wolfie, ok to allow me to use your thread for a question? Thank you sir.

Bkreutz - I had a single FTF this weekend out of a run of 100 rounds of Walmart 115 WWB. Gun is a Nov 13 build FS9, with a DCAEK, now with about 2,000 rounds through it.

Obviously not time to panic, but for a while I've wondered how the striker assembly is removed for inspection and cleaning.

Any tips or DIYs to do that you can suggest?

 

[Bkreutz]

Wolfie, ok to allow me to use your thread for a question? Thank you sir.

Bkreutz - I had a single FTF this weekend out of a run of 100 rounds of Walmart 115 WWB. Gun is a Nov 13 build FS9, with a DCAEK, now with about 2,000 rounds through it.

Obviously not time to panic, but for a while I've wondered how the striker assembly is removed for inspection and cleaning.

Any tips or DIYs to do that you can suggest?

It isn't difficult but a picture is worth a ..... Rastoff has a nice picture and description on post #706 of this thread http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/338155-shield-40-mishap.html I use a long wooden handled medical Q-tip to get down in there.

I've attached a picture of what the striker looks like at 20K rounds. This was when I started experiencing light strikes, I hadn't cleaned the striker before this. There was quite a buildup of junk in the "step" at the front of the striker and in the striker well effectively stopping the pin from getting a full depth hit on the firing pin. Now I clean it monthly. (or so)

 

[shawn mccarver]

I would go even further than some of the advice above, and I would first return the gun to stock, including all springs. If you still have failures to fire, I would suggest a check of the headspace. When the M&P first came out, one customer had some trouble with the primers not being ignited. He finally sent it back, and it came back with a new barrel and slide, with night sights thrown in only because the tech said those were the only slides available at that moment. In any event, a call to the tech revealed that the head space was just enough as to be out of spec so that some primers would fire and some would not. So, if your problem does not get solved with spring changes, cleaning, etc., let S&W check it for proper tolerances.

 

[Wolfiesden]

2 possible suggestions for safety glasses would be:

1) Maybe check in the tool section/hardware dept. for smaller safety glasses. Possibly something smaller there.

2) I wear prescription safety glasses for work, so you may be able to get safety lens from an inexpensive eye glass/eye doctor without being prescription. Maybe Walmart?

Glad the girls like to shoot and spend time with you! That's a great thing

1. Been there. Menards, Home Depot, Fleet Farm, Farm and Fleet. None have child sized safety glasses.

2. Adult prescription safety glasses are common and easy. Child size are not. I too tried wallmart but they only have reading glasses and of course prescription frames. The only thing they could offer is a zero correction lens. It of course requires a prescription and thus a doctor to do it and then frames and lenses to be ground and that makes it a costly endeavor.

I have looked for 2 years now. Even though she is 10, she is the size of an 7-8yr old. Normally 7-8yr olds are not in the situation where they need safety glasses. Manufacturers cater to the masses and aren't sustained in business by one off things that has a limited market. I wish Caldwell or one of the other firearms accessory makers would put something out for smaller kids even if it was a special order item.

I would go even further than some of the advice above, and I would first return the gun to stock, including all springs. If you still have failures to fire, I would suggest a check of the headspace. When the M&P first came out, one customer had some trouble with the primers not being ignited. He finally sent it back, and it came back with a new barrel and slide, with night sights thrown in only because the tech said those were the only slides available at that moment. In any event, a call to the tech revealed that the head space was just enough as to be out of spec so that some primers would fire and some would not. So, if your problem does not get solved with spring changes, cleaning, etc., let S&W check it for proper tolerances.

I will check, not positive if the former owner has the original parts. I think first step is popping the striker out and inspecting that area is a first and easy step. Then maybe de-grading the parts if available is another wise step.

It isn't difficult but a picture is worth a ..... Rastoff has a nice picture and description on post #706 of this thread http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/338155-shield-40-mishap.html

Here is the direct link to that post:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/338155-shield-40-mishap-15.html#post138028142

And thanks for that link. I was going to have to google up a vid about it too. Some of these things are deviously simple but unless you know the secret, baffling as hell.

 

[Llando88]

Wolfie - How about this pair:

Radians - G4 Junior Child Safety Glass-Clear Lens - Kids Safety Goggles - Amazon.com@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31AE5mzLCVL.@@AMEPARAM@@31AE5mzLCVL

 

[kannonvaggon]

A friend of mine got Remington "true junior" T10 shooting glasses for his
kid and they like them

 

[Wolfiesden]

I will have to find the manufacturer contact info on the Radians and see if they can give me a width spec on them. Thanks, I don't think I saw those before.

Can't remember, either Gander or Cabela's had the T10's and they were too wide. The temples were pressed by the ear muffs and held the muffs open which substantially reduced their effectiveness and after about a half hour you could see red marks behind her ears from the inward pressure.

 

[Wolfiesden]

Found what appears to be the direct website and shot them an email.
Radians Personal Protective Equipment - Radians G4 Junior? Shooting Glass

Thanks for the lead. Now I wait until they reply with a size on the glasses.

 

[Llando88]

It isn't difficult ... (snip)

Ok!

Thanks to the tips above, I was able to remove, clean and successfully reassemble my striker assembly.

Some notes:

- The Frame Tool makes a perfect 'mover' for the plastic inside the striker channel to compress the spring. I used it for both removal and insertion.

- Wow! Lot of gunk in the channel (2,000 rounds through my gun). I used Q tips to get down in there to remove the muck.

- Some of my Froglube had gotten in there, so I wiped it all down and reassembled dry.

Thanks guys.

Picture in mid process, striker is as it was removed from the channel: