Light trigger legal ramifications....

[DeathF.above]

I'm finding it hard to comprehend this whole legal liability of having a lighter trigger or putting apex parts in a defense weapon, in this case the m&p. If you would ever have to INTENTIONALLY use your modified weapon to take out someone that is looking to harm or kill you or your loved ones, why would this be held against you in court? Would having a heavier trigger make the situation any different?! Someone please enlighten me. I get the whole UNintentional discharge liabilities, but why would self defense situations matter.

 

[Jboutfishn]

Not a lawyer, but why would any trigger modification make a difference when considering an intentional discharge?

 

[F75gunslinger]

It would be different in a comparison between an intentional and non-intentional discharge. But...if the DA decides to pursue charges, it would be used to make you look like you made it a " hair trigger ". Basically...anything that would make you look bad to the un-informed non gun owning public in hopes that he would get a guilty verdict. Just like handloading really. You can build your own ammo, and make it less powerful than a standard +p load...but it will be used to show that you made " killer ammo " that was meant to take a persons life.

 

[southcoast]

Not a lawyer, but why would any trigger modification make a difference when considering an intentional discharge?

Your instincts are correct. There has never been an actual court case where a trigger modification became a relevant issue after an intentional shooting. There never will be. You will get many responses claiming over zealous prosecutors, uninformed jurors, expert testimony, Mas Ayoob, and many other speculative hypotheticals, but no one will provide the citation to an actual court case where this has come to fruition. It just wont happen. One brick of 22lr on me to the first actual citation.

 

[JaPes]

I'm finding it hard to comprehend this whole legal liability of having a lighter trigger...

If you would ever have to INTENTIONALLY use your modified weapon to take out someone that is looking to harm or kill you or your loved ones, why would this be held against you in court?

Just an amateur. I'm not a lawyer. I'm just using whatever common sense...

1. There is no legal liability. There is no law (at least in my State) which expressly prohibits the modification of a semi-auto trigger.

2. If I INTENTIONALLY use my modified firearm to kill the assailant and it is a legally justifiable self defense shooting, then I am less worried about being held CRIMINALLY liable and charged with murder, manslaughter, etc.

3. If #2 above is true, depending the individual State law, I could still be subject to a CIVIL lawsuit of wrongful death brought by the dead criminal's family. Depending on State law, I would have to defend myself from the accusations and arguments leveled by the plaintiff's (dead criminal's family) lawyer to a CIVIL jury and/or judge. The plaintiff's lawyer will then use everything possible to win a monetary judgement against me. That lawyer will argue that modifying a firearm to have a lighter, easier trigger to shoot is a sign that I am more disposed to shoot than not to shoot. Blah blah blah...

To firearms enthusiasts, it's a silly argument. To the uninitiated individual who has no interest or experience with firearms in which to put the lawyer's argument into personal context, the argument can appear to be valid.

Modify or don't modify your carry firearm's trigger, it's your choice. I'll be honest. I have four firearms that are in my carry rotation. Three pistols are OEM stock. My Glock29 has a modified trigger. I installed a NY1 trigger spring to increase it's trigger pull weight. *shrug*

 

[Hapworth]

The horses are probably already out of the barn (again), but...

...this topic get discussed...a lot...over and over...all there is to say about it has been said...repeatedly and often vehemently.

Run a search for more reading than you ever wanted on the subject, and to no definitive conclusion.

 

[Ranger17]

To firearms enthusiasts, it's a silly argument. To the uninitiated individual who has no interest or experience with firearms in which to put the lawyer's argument into personal context, the argument can appear to be valid.

That's actually a good point, heck up to a couple years ago I may have fallen more on the "uninitiated individual" side of an argument like this, where as now that i'm an owner and learning more on firearms I would not be.
After all is said and done, this great country of ours allows far too often civil lawsuits to be pursued. If there is no criminal intent or prosecution, the story should end there. Not to say (no different then an auto accident) that if there is some negligence then there could be an avenue to pursue for monies for medical expenses, etc but seems any suit is first pursued by a lawyer for the $$$$$.

just my .02

 

[Arik]

I guess it could be seen as tempering with a properly functioning firearm.

Personally I never bother messing with the trigger. I either like it or I don't buy it

 

[ken158]

The key thing is what you intended to accomplish. IF you intended to pull the trigger - what difference does it make if it is a 5 pound or a 2 pound pull. What if a defense attorney made a big deal out of how much you practice shooting - more practice makes you look like you anticipated or wanted an altercation - you answer so you would be better prepared - anything wrong with that? What if you hit an aggressor with a cinder block when a smaller brick was available...

 

[Buttercup]

Your instincts are correct. There has never been an actual court case where a trigger modification became a relevant issue after an intentional shooting. There never will be. You will get many responses claiming over zealous prosecutors, uninformed jurors, expert testimony, Mas Ayoob, and many other speculative hypotheticals, but no one will provide the citation to an actual court case where this has come to fruition. It just wont happen. One brick of 22lr on me to the first actual citation.

Here is a link with cited court cases where the trigger pull became an issue. Scroll down to Emanual Kapelsaun section of article for citations. I posted the link as I can't cut and paste on my phone.

Gun Modifications, Light Triggers and Reloaded Ammunition

When do I get my ammo?

 

[one eye joe]

I DOUBT THAT THERE IS A DIFINITIVE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION. WHILE A MODIFIED TRIGGER OR HANDLOADED AMMO MAY NOT COME INTO PLAY IN A GRAND JURY HEARING OR CRIMINAL TRIAL, I WOULD BET THAT IT WOULD BE USED TO PAINT A NEGATIVE PICTURE OF YOU TO A JURY IN A CIVIL SUIT. THE OPPOSING LAWYER MAY SEEK TO REMOVE ANY NRA MEMBERS, OR GUN OWNERS / CC PERMIT HOLDERS FROM THE JURY, CLAIMING THAT THEY ARE PREJUDICIAL. HE WILL HAVE AMASSED A JURY OF 12, WHO HE THINKS HE CAN CONVINCE THAT YOU WERE SOME SORT OF EVIL INTENTIONED GUN NUT, JUST WAITING TO KILL SOMEONE. PERHAPS, HE WILL ACHIEVE HIS OBJECTIVE. I KEEP MY TRIGGERS STOCK, AND USE FACTORY AMMO IN MY FEW CARRY GUNS TO ENSURE RELIABILITY, AND NOT TO GIVE ANY UNDUE ADVANTAGE TO THE PROSECUTION……….

 

[southcoast]

Here is a link with cited court cases where the trigger pull became an issue. Scroll down to Emanual Kapelsaun section of article for citations. I posted the link as I can't cut and paste on my phone.

Gun Modifications, Light Triggers and Reloaded Ammunition

When do I get my ammo?

Despite this intending to be an article from the "Self Defense Network" with a sad attempt at a serious legal discussion, there is not one actual court case cited in a somewhat lengthy piece. Sure they present some knowledgeable in the general gun arena, who claim that this could be an issue. They even have one claim that twice it came up in a case by the prosecutor. They never state this was a case of intentional discharge, whether the alleged hair trigger issue ever made it past a simple objection, past a judge, to a jury, or was even legally relevant in the ultimate decision. Finally, per my initial stance, there is no actual case citation. FYI, any legitimate legal writing, regardless of topic, will have numerous citations to actual court cases and not rely on unsupported opinions of those who profit from the uncertainty and fear.

You will receive your ammo when those simple criteria are met. Simply put, please cite an actual case of an intentional discharge, where a modified trigger became a legally relevant issue.

 

[Hapworth]

Here is a link with cited court cases where the trigger pull became an issue. Scroll down to Emanual Kapelsaun section of article for citations. I posted the link as I can't cut and paste on my phone.

Gun Modifications, Light Triggers and Reloaded Ammunition

When do I get my ammo? ��

Mr. Kapelsaun's examples don't meet southcoast's threshold for relevant issue.

It's one thing for a prosecutor to raise the matter -- that's easy and prosecutors will throw much at walls to see what sticks -- but for it to achieve noteworthy relevance it has to affect the trial's outcome negatively for the defendant, or be a major factor in the case to successfully defend against.

There remains thus far no cited case that in the instance of a deliberate citizen self-defense shooting that trigger modification resulted in a guilty verdict or any meaningful impact on the trial.

That brick of .22 remains in play...


ETA: dern southcoast beat me to it.

 

[Buttercup]

Wow guys lighten up a bit here. I was just sharing information and I did put a smiley face. I missed where he said intentional firing in his post. I still think there is good information in the article if it is read in whole. Whether it can change the outcome of a self defense criminal trial is best addressed by one of the gentleman in the article when he states "There are 3 or 4 others, all of them accidental discharge defenses. I found no reported appellate cases where any discussion on this issue occurred in the context of a self-defense case, nor would I expect to. In order to claim self-defense, you must admit that you purposefully shot an assailant. If you intended to do so, the pull weight of the trigger and the extent of one’s training are largely irrelevant. (“Pull weight schmull weight, it would not have mattered if it had a 15-pound trigger pull. I shot the *** until he stopped trying to kill me...”) It won’t keep some enterprising prosecutor from bleating about it in court, creating an issue to confuse a jury already drowning in facts and bullets and blood, which is never a good idea. And there is no way of knowing how many cases at the trial level there are out there where this precise thing has happened."

Also in the article posted it talks about that while it may or may not make a difference in the criminal proceedings it could possibly be used in the civil proceedings. If you think a not guilty verdict in a criminal proceeding protects you from civil proceedings just ask OJ how that worked out for him.

Bottom line is all of us have to make a choice on what we think is best and what the risk factors to that decision are. I won't tell someone whether they are right or wrong on making modifications to the trigger on their self defense weapon but I personally won't give the opposition any more leverage to use against me. Remember their are uneducated and yes stupid people out there (12 of them made McDonalds pay millions of dollars for serving hot coffee to someone who then proceeded to put it between their legs while driving and squeezed!) who may be swayed more easily by an attorney portraying it not as a self defense situation but making us out to be "rambo" out looking for or expecting a problem.

Again I say to each his own but personally I will have my self defense guns and the range guns and each of them has their own purpose.

 

[southcoast]

Wow guys lighten up a bit here. I was just sharing information and I did put a smiley face. I missed where he said intentional firing in his post. I still think there is good information in the article if it is read in whole. Whether it can change the outcome of a self defense criminal trial is best addressed by one of the gentleman in the article when he states "There are 3 or 4 others, all of them accidental discharge defenses. I found no reported appellate cases where any discussion on this issue occurred in the context of a self-defense case, nor would I expect to. In order to claim self-defense, you must admit that you purposefully shot an assailant. If you intended to do so, the pull weight of the trigger and the extent of one’s training are largely irrelevant. (“Pull weight schmull weight, it would not have mattered if it had a 15-pound trigger pull. I shot the *** until he stopped trying to kill me...”) It won’t keep some enterprising prosecutor from bleating about it in court, creating an issue to confuse a jury already drowning in facts and bullets and blood, which is never a good idea. And there is no way of knowing how many cases at the trial level there are out there where this precise thing has happened."

Also in the article posted it talks about that while it may or may not make a difference in the criminal proceedings it could possibly be used in the civil proceedings. If you think a not guilty verdict in a criminal proceeding protects you from civil proceedings just ask OJ how that worked out for him.

Bottom line is all of us have to make a choice on what we think is best and what the risk factors to that decision are. I won't tell someone whether they are right or wrong on making modifications to the trigger on their self defense weapon but I personally won't give the opposition any more leverage to use against me. Remember their are uneducated and yes stupid people out there (12 of them made McDonalds pay millions of dollars for serving hot coffee to someone who then proceeded to put it between their legs while driving and squeezed!) who may be swayed more easily by an attorney portraying it not as a self defense situation but making us out to be "rambo" out looking for or expecting a problem.

Again I say to each his own but personally I will have my self defense guns and the range guns and each of them has their own purpose.

I respect your intent. Just really wanted to get rid of a brick of 22lr without having the pleasure of putting it through the 15-22.

 

[Buttercup]

South coast I am trying to get that brick trust me! Lol.

 

[sgtsandman]

A scumbag lawyer or a prosecutor with an agenda would probably try it but unless you have a 1 pound trigger, I doubt they would use it. Unless there is other circumstances in the case to use it to drive home a point.

Having a super light trigger on a field/carry weapon just is asking for trouble. Say less than 4-4.5 pounds.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Nitrous SSC]

At first I was worried about this until my good friend a public defender told me not to worry. He said if it accidentally goes off. Yeah, I'm in deep ****. If I make it go bang on purpose, no worry.

 

[paladin42]

Just for grins...

Let's suppose that you have a heavy, rough trigger on your weapon. A lawyer could argue negligence on your part for having a handgun that is inordinately harder to shoot accurately.

 

[John R]

Very informative, thanks for sharing.