Don't put words in that I didn't say........I said it can happen using any bullet. My 66 from the same era has never missed a lick. My 19 was bought new and had many rounds fired before this happened. So the myth hot loads with light bullets is just that........Sometimes it just happens.
Light weight bullets in the Model 19
- Thread starter max503
- Start date
Don't put words in that I didn't say........I said it can happen using any bullet. My 66 from the same era has never missed a lick. My 19 was bought new and had many rounds fired before this happened. So the myth hot loads with light bullets is just that........Sometimes it just happens.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2005
- Messages
- 8,005
- Reaction score
- 7,073
The issue is with high pressure magnums having short bullets as the minuscule difference in the length of time the b/c gap is “sealed” makes all the difference.
I settled the question for myself by just deciding not to shoot 357's in the older guns. Why bother? It's not like I carry them, or anything like that. I punch holes in paper. 38's do that just fine and I've never heard of 38's damaging the forcing cone. *
My Model 19-9, with the dreaded lock...now that one gets the magnum stuff. It's still under warranty and if something happens to it, Smith and Wesson can and will still fix it. The old ones? Not much chance of finding the parts to fix one, and even if you do, it's still not "the same."
* Oddly enough, the only cracked forcing cone I've ever seen, live and in person, however, was a Model 15, 38 Special. I wish I'd known more about that gun, but when I pointed out the cracked forcing cone to the clerk, it vanished into the back and was never seen again.
My Model 19-9, with the dreaded lock...now that one gets the magnum stuff. It's still under warranty and if something happens to it, Smith and Wesson can and will still fix it. The old ones? Not much chance of finding the parts to fix one, and even if you do, it's still not "the same."
* Oddly enough, the only cracked forcing cone I've ever seen, live and in person, however, was a Model 15, 38 Special. I wish I'd known more about that gun, but when I pointed out the cracked forcing cone to the clerk, it vanished into the back and was never seen again.
The 66-8 is a different animal. Cracked forcing cones were an issue with the older K-frame revolvers. The 19-9 and 66-8 feature a redesigned front lock for the cylinder, the lock was moved from the ejector rod tip and housing to the cylinder crane and crane recess. Also, the barrel was redesigned, the new barrel is a rifled tube which is screwed into the frame and a sleeve which is held, I presume, to the frame by a pin and to the muzzle with a nut. This barrel system is based on the Dan Wesson barrel system, which was well known for its accuracy. Also, the new barrel system does not have a flat spot at the forcing cone, so it is not likely to crack. Well, I guess it can, but I expect your wrists will crack before the forcing cone of the new K-frame cracks.
Birdhunter6
Member
I previously had a late 70s 66 and recently picked up a 19-3.
My primary range load is a 158 grain plated flat point and W231 in .357 brass. On the other hand I have the 19 zeroed with 125 grain Hornady HPs. The 66 was my house gun for several years. I shot 18 rounds of 125 grain factory HPs from it annually: The rounds it was loaded with and the 2 speed loaders kept with it.
I have never had a problem but always followed the advice of multiple gunsmiths: Avoid a steady diet of light bullet Magnum loads in the K frame.
My primary range load is a 158 grain plated flat point and W231 in .357 brass. On the other hand I have the 19 zeroed with 125 grain Hornady HPs. The 66 was my house gun for several years. I shot 18 rounds of 125 grain factory HPs from it annually: The rounds it was loaded with and the 2 speed loaders kept with it.
I have never had a problem but always followed the advice of multiple gunsmiths: Avoid a steady diet of light bullet Magnum loads in the K frame.
There's no pin through the barrel, as far as I know. Even if something happens to the barrel it's an easy replacement with the 2 piece system and no one's the wiser. All the cosmetics are in the shroud which doesn't wear out.
There must have een some truth in that the fast 110 & 125 JHP loads did damage to the M19 style weapons......
In the old days the 110 JHP in data books was logged at 1,600fps in several loading manuals.
Today, Rem & Win ammo puts the .357 Magnum 110 JHP out doing only 1295fps.
It was just that there was a flaw in the design of the M19, that made it posible for the barrel to get damaged.
If you want light fast bullets in a .357, just get a L frame or heavier, that have 100% metal at the receiving end, infront of the cylinder, or
select bullet weights from 140 gr or heavier.
Good shooting.
In the old days the 110 JHP in data books was logged at 1,600fps in several loading manuals.
Today, Rem & Win ammo puts the .357 Magnum 110 JHP out doing only 1295fps.
It was just that there was a flaw in the design of the M19, that made it posible for the barrel to get damaged.
If you want light fast bullets in a .357, just get a L frame or heavier, that have 100% metal at the receiving end, infront of the cylinder, or
select bullet weights from 140 gr or heavier.
Good shooting.
No pin through the barrel, but I expect there is a pin connecting the front of the frame to the back of the barrel shroud to prevent the shroud from rotating. That's how DW did it.
BigChief52
Member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2014
- Messages
- 155
- Reaction score
- 163
Then there is a question of effectiveness. Personally, I can shoot more accurately with 125g 38+P loads from my model 19 than I can with full power magnums. I figure a 125g at 920fps bullet placed where you want it is better than a 158g bullet at 1200fps missing the target. Shooting powerful magnums from a light revolver is a skill I haven't mastered yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shocker
There's no pin through the barrel, as far as I know. Even if something happens to the barrel it's an easy replacement with the 2 piece system and no one's the wiser. All the cosmetics are in the shroud which doesn't wear out.
According to the instruction manual, there is a special barrel tool available only to S&W qualified gunsmiths. The pictorial does indeed show a pin installed on the same axis as the barrel.
Originally Posted by shocker
There's no pin through the barrel, as far as I know. Even if something happens to the barrel it's an easy replacement with the 2 piece system and no one's the wiser. All the cosmetics are in the shroud which doesn't wear out.
According to the instruction manual, there is a special barrel tool available only to S&W qualified gunsmiths. The pictorial does indeed show a pin installed on the same axis as the barrel.
OK, for the 66-8 it sounds as if a diet of +P .38's and .357 Mags in 125-130 gr. is good to go within reason. I am not sure I know where the "reason" limit boundary's are exactly but I would anticipate firing 1,000 of these a year at a reasonable pace during a range session mixed in with 105 gr. & 148 gr. wad cutters as well as 158 gr. semi wad cutters.
I will stick with the same mix of mild wad cutter loads for practice mixed with some 158 gr FBI loads as well as that being the carry load for my 15-3.
I really appreciate the great knowledge base of this forum when it comes to these "special" situations as I was not aware of the entire light bullet thing.
Thanks for sharing!
I will stick with the same mix of mild wad cutter loads for practice mixed with some 158 gr FBI loads as well as that being the carry load for my 15-3.
I really appreciate the great knowledge base of this forum when it comes to these "special" situations as I was not aware of the entire light bullet thing.
Thanks for sharing!
My experience has been that you won't enjoy firing full power, lightweight bullet magnum loads in something as light as the K-frame, at least with barrels of 4 inches or less. 38 Special and 38 Special +P with any weight of bullet will be far more comfortable. Remember, a flame throwing, hard recoiling, louder than an M-80 firecracker, massive magnum load that causes you to flinch and miss will do no good, but a load you can control and put on target will serve you well.
I see a lot of antidotal and theoretical discussion here so I will wade in with my own antidote. I purchased my 2 1/2" 66-1 back in 1977 and fired the whole spectrum of ammunition through it. For serious social engagements I settled on 125 gr. JHP .357 magnum ammo of the day, and I'll tell you why. That stuff got the job done. As for follow up shots on a 2" spot, who cares. I was confident my first shot would be successful, and if multiple target presented themselves they would be engaged like the first. No bringing the weapon back to that theoretical two inch spot on a piece of paper. If a second shot was required on the first target, he would not be in the same position any way, and neither would I. The self defense shooting environment is extremely fluid and all well intentioned planning goes out the window the minute it starts. Training and instinct takes over.
Now, as for cracked forcing cones on K-frame magnums, think about this. When a hammer handle cracks or your engine dies you fix it or you buy a new one. Nothing lasts forever, and that holds true for firearms. I say take care of your stuff and take it to the max. Even toys don't last forever, even when properly maintained, and your hand gun certainly is no toy. At least it isn't for most people.
I carried that old 66 through the 80's and 90's and shot it just two weeks ago. It is still the monster it always was, and a lot easier to carry than a L or N frame.
Now, as for cracked forcing cones on K-frame magnums, think about this. When a hammer handle cracks or your engine dies you fix it or you buy a new one. Nothing lasts forever, and that holds true for firearms. I say take care of your stuff and take it to the max. Even toys don't last forever, even when properly maintained, and your hand gun certainly is no toy. At least it isn't for most people.
I carried that old 66 through the 80's and 90's and shot it just two weeks ago. It is still the monster it always was, and a lot easier to carry than a L or N frame.
Had the new 66-8 to the range this weekend and shot the whole cadre of ammo I listed previously; Mid Range .38 Spec. wad cutters, handloaded 148 gr. wad cutters over 4.0 gr BE in mag cases, Winchester 125 gr. HP's +P .38 Spec, Buffalo Bore 158 gr. HP's +P .38 Spec (FBI load), Winchester 110 gr. HP's .357 Mag, Remington 125 gr. HP's Golden Saber .357 Mag, Federal 130 gr. Hydra-Shok .357 Mag to Winchester 158 gr. HP's in .357 Mag.
I only shot at the 7 yard line as that is where I do most of my practice and my 70 year old eyes don't do real well much past that.
Anyway, the revolver performed beyond my expectations for a new firearm. Great trigger, not quite what my 15-3 is but very close with no creep, a clean break (I have the official NRA trigger weights and will test it) and minimal over travel. The revolver behaved very well ( the SS makes it surprisingly hefty for a snub) with the 2.75" barrel and sight viability is good even under a covered shooting position on an overcast day. I never touched the sights. They were dead on and groups were tight with each type of ammo and really never varied from one to the next as to POI. All rounds ejected with ease from the.38 wad cutters to the 158 gr. Mags. Most fell free on the tilt and all were clear of the cylinder by 1/2" of rod travel. All primers looked normal and no bulges to be seen. All cases re-chambered with ease... A surprise was the "perceived" recoil of the Buffalo Bore FBI load. The box states 1,000 FPS but not what barrel length was used for testing. They use the Rim Rock 158 gr. gas checked bullet which I have read comes in at 162 gr. I am guessing the WW 158 gr. HP to be in the 1,200-1,300 FPS range. My assumption is that the lower velocity and hence longer bore time resulted in a more "perceived push" than the faster magnum round. The 125 gr. .38 +P's were a non event in this gun and the 110, 125 and 130 gr. magnum loads seemed the same with a slight up tic for the 158's.
Well there it is for whatever its worth. The revolver seemed fine with what ever I gave it with the action smooth through the test of 120 rounds. All said and done I think I will carry either the 130 gr Hydra-Shok or the BB FBI load.
Again I would like to thank all of you for your input on this topic it has been very helpful and thought provoking posts from everyone. I don't shoot thousands upon thousands of rounds a year but I will post how the 66 is getting on from time to time.
Best to you all!!!
I only shot at the 7 yard line as that is where I do most of my practice and my 70 year old eyes don't do real well much past that.
Anyway, the revolver performed beyond my expectations for a new firearm. Great trigger, not quite what my 15-3 is but very close with no creep, a clean break (I have the official NRA trigger weights and will test it) and minimal over travel. The revolver behaved very well ( the SS makes it surprisingly hefty for a snub) with the 2.75" barrel and sight viability is good even under a covered shooting position on an overcast day. I never touched the sights. They were dead on and groups were tight with each type of ammo and really never varied from one to the next as to POI. All rounds ejected with ease from the.38 wad cutters to the 158 gr. Mags. Most fell free on the tilt and all were clear of the cylinder by 1/2" of rod travel. All primers looked normal and no bulges to be seen. All cases re-chambered with ease... A surprise was the "perceived" recoil of the Buffalo Bore FBI load. The box states 1,000 FPS but not what barrel length was used for testing. They use the Rim Rock 158 gr. gas checked bullet which I have read comes in at 162 gr. I am guessing the WW 158 gr. HP to be in the 1,200-1,300 FPS range. My assumption is that the lower velocity and hence longer bore time resulted in a more "perceived push" than the faster magnum round. The 125 gr. .38 +P's were a non event in this gun and the 110, 125 and 130 gr. magnum loads seemed the same with a slight up tic for the 158's.
Well there it is for whatever its worth. The revolver seemed fine with what ever I gave it with the action smooth through the test of 120 rounds. All said and done I think I will carry either the 130 gr Hydra-Shok or the BB FBI load.
Again I would like to thank all of you for your input on this topic it has been very helpful and thought provoking posts from everyone. I don't shoot thousands upon thousands of rounds a year but I will post how the 66 is getting on from time to time.
Best to you all!!!
Last edited:
