Lion Air 737 MAX crash report

[muddocktor]

From reading the link, I gather that there were several failures in both hardware, software and pilot error for this crash to happen. A break in any of the points of failure of this accident and there would have been a good chance those folks would still be alive. And Boeing has more than their fair share of the blame for their faulty MCAS software and more importantly, using a critical system that had a single point of failure that could cause terrible consequences. And combined with all this is the fact that as these jets get more and more automated, the pilot skills get less and less in flying in manual mode, which makes for a harder time for the pilots to handle a situation out of normal flying..

And don't think that Boeing is the only company that has screwed the pooch with faulty software and depending on a single point of failure sensor. When it all started coming out about MCAS and a sensor failure, I immediately thought of the Airbus A330 and Air France Flight 447. In that case, you had a pitot tube iced over causing low readings on airspeed (single point of failure). This in turn caused their software to turn off the fly-by-wire system and then one of the pilots screwed up by grabbing the side stick controller and pulling backwards to raise the nose and put the plane into a stall situation. And the other pilot didn't realize what had happened since the side stick controllers do not move in unison and basically they rode a nose up stall all the way down to the Atlantic Ocean.

I do not have a clue as to how they can fix the increasing reliance on more and more automation on the new designs except for better training and maybe giving the pilots a few more old analog instruments to cross check all this digital wonder stuff. And never, never, depend on critical systems that use sensors with a single point of failure that can lead to a catastrophic loss of the aircraft.

 

[DWalt]

"Boeing designed a warning light that would alert pilots when the sensors measuring their plane’s angle of attack differed widely, which would give notify them of a faulty MCAS activation. The manufacturer does not install the warning light as a standard feature on the 737 Max 8. Airlines have to pay extra for it."

There was a redundant stall sensor, except the two sensors did not communicate to each other. Ideally, there would be some way to warn the cockpit if both sensors were not making the same reading, and in fact there was - the warning light. But for some mysterious reason, installing a warning light was made an extra-cost option by Boeing, but apparently most airlines did not want to pay for the option, or at least Boeing did not make it clear to their customers that having the warning light was essential. At least to me, Boeing's major failure was not to have the warning light included as a standard safety feature on every Max-8.

 

[LDM]

The common thread of these crashes is that they were with government-owned third world flag carriers with questionable training and maintenance procedures. That needs to be investigated further.

 

[GaryS]

That's been common for some years. I watched an episode of Air Disasters where an Aeroflot Nord 737 crashed. Poor maintenance and neither pilot being particularly familiar with the aircraft type were the primary cause. Well, the pilot being drunk didn't help either.

The common thread of these crashes is that they were with government-owned third world flag carriers with questionable training and maintenance procedures. That needs to be investigated further.

 

[JayFramer]

In the aircraft biz we have a saying:

"What kills the passengers only makes us stronger"

Hoping we can move through this and learn from our mistakes.

 

[Absalom]

That training and maintenance standards in (to put it gently) technically less advanced countries are a contributing factor is likely.

However, the implication that this somehow mitigates or reduces Boeing’s screw-ups is misplaced. Quite the contrary. If Boeing builds aircraft with systems that only pilots with the tech understanding of MIT graduates and the skill level of former F-16 pilots can fly safely, the company is toast.

Because all the future growth markets are in Asia, especially China, and other regions of the formerly so-called Third World. That’s where the big-money orders come from, because that’s where the population growth and modernization of transportation are happening.

So taking the view “Those guys are just too sloppy and not smart enough to fly our excellent planes” is short-sighted, and suicidal as a business strategy.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I worked in the Everett Washington area back in the 1990's with the Union Ironworkers
putting in reinforced cement slabs and tunnels for the new structural "Red Iron" steel that was to go up, to build the new "Bigger" building hanger and across the street the new Paint locker, for the up and coming 757 airplane, that was too big to fit in the old buildings.

There was also an office building on the N/E of our area with all the employees that did all the testing and ran the whole operation.

You can't believe all the time and testing that goes into every little part and operation, that is needed to build a plane let alone equipment and parts needed outside the plane to get the job done.

I feel 3x safer in a Boeing than on the table getting a heart operation!!
I look at the Pilots for any errors that put it in the dirt..........

I have a picture of the 757 cockpit, that was given to me as a gift from a Boeing mechanic that worked at the hanger we were building. This was an old plane by todays standards and this new plane had even MORE safety items for the planes safety......
if the pilot knew how to use the system to fly the plane !!

With the big ticket price that one "safety item" should have been included but..........
in todays times, a added item in cars is even a cig lighter, that was a standard item, in the old days.
A buyer not wanting to spend $$ for a added safety item, gets what he pays for.

I don't know about you but having a "Low Air" warning for my tires or an Air Bag system in my car, is a nice thing to have.

 

[LVSteve]

I worked in the Everett Washington area back in the 1990's with the Union Ironworkers
putting in reinforced cement slabs and tunnels for the new structural "Red Iron" steel that was to go up, to build the new "Bigger" building hanger and across the street the new Paint locker, for the up and coming 757 airplane, that was too big to fit in the old buildings.

There was also an office building on the N/E of our area with all the employees that did all the testing and ran the whole operation.

You can't believe all the time and testing that goes into every little part and operation, that is needed to build a plane let alone equipment and parts needed outside the plane to get the job done.

I feel 3x safer in a Boeing than on the table getting a heart operation!!
I look at the Pilots for any errors that put it in the dirt..........

I have a picture of the 757 cockpit, that was given to me as a gift from a Boeing mechanic that worked at the hanger we were building. This was an old plane by todays standards and this new plane had even MORE safety items for the planes safety......
if the pilot knew how to use the system to fly the plane !!

With the big ticket price that one "safety item" should have been included but..........
in todays times, a added item in cars is even a cig lighter, that was a standard item, in the old days.
A buyer not wanting to spend $$ for a added safety item, gets what he pays for.

I don't know about you but having a "Low Air" warning for my tires or an Air Bag system in my car, is a nice thing to have.

That's an excellent description of how things used to be at Boeing. Cursory search on the Web for engineers commenting on how money people now run the company will quickly turns up some scary stuff.