load data S&W #3 Target 32-44 S&W

[Rod Henrickson]

So, here in lays the conundrum. I managed to lay my hands on a S&W #3 Target in 32-44 S&W in what I can best describe as 100% mechanical condition. I suspect the owner bought it back in 1897 and shot it a few times and it then went into the sock drawer because the ammunition was hard to get and the thing was just a bit to anemic for shooting anything tougher than paper. Of course in Communist Canada this sort of critter is classed as an antique and I can actually take it out and shoot gophers to my hearts content with the it. Now I know some of the collectors on this board might be freaking out at the very notion of such nonsense and my heart bleeds for you, I'm still going to shoot it. I have been a full time gunsmith for over 40 years since getting out of CST in Denver so I'm semi retiring and I figure it's my turn to start wreaking stuff.
I've laid my hands on 500pc of new 32-20 brass and have dies coming from CH for the 32-44 S&W. This is where things are going to get a bit hinky, possibly even kinky. I'm going to use the Speer 32 caliber .314", 98 grain, lubed lead HBWC bullets. What I'm going to do is make a set of bump-dies and invert the bullets and reform the hollow base of the wadcutter into an ogive that resembles a 22LR bullet. At the same time I will bump the diameter up to .321" which is what that old model #3 was designed to use.

I may be crazy but I'm not nutz and I don't want to ruin the gun so I'm going to stay totally away from smokeless powder because the gun was never designed for it. There is no real loading data out there for this cartridge outside of the 2 loads listed on the factory fodder from the paleolithic era and nothing at all for a 98 grain bullet. So my powder of choice will either be FFFg black powder or Pyrodex P. Logic tells me that 10 grains of either should give me about 700 FPS and I won't run any risk of (SQUIBBING) the bore or causing any pressure related damage to the gun. Does that load seem to heavy? To light?
Also, black powder should be loaded with zero air space to prevent flash overs, but is there any risk of the bullets working forward in the cases under recoil? I understand that the original factory loads were deep seated in the case with no crimp but for some reason that whole idea seems a bit spooky to me!

If anyone can see any ideas or issues with my twisted thinking. Please feel free to chip in. I'm Canadian, so handguns are not my forte.

ADD NOT: Does anyone know for sure how these old #3 Targets were blued? Were they that horribly tough Carbona blue that you have to peal off with a blow torch and air chisel, or were they caustic blued? Not that I would ever entertain the thought of tossing a fine, collectable into the bluing tanks . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

First off, Pyrodex is NOT a 'by weight' replacement for Black Powder.
Pyrodex is used in equal Volume to Black Powder.

Second, Why not try the bullets the conventional way. The skirt should
expand enough to seal. It is worth a try and you won't have to go to
such lengths to generate ammo.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[Jim Watson]

I had a .38-44 Target which I loaded as for .38 Special Midrange. I got best accuracy with, of all things, a 125 grain Speer swaged 9mm bullet. Which, wouldn't you know, it, I did not write down along with all the 145, 148, and 158 loads.

But if you want to stick with black powder, I would apply the conventional wisdom and load whatever it takes to leave no airspace.

 

[danalex]

The book "Siguns of the Old West" by Chicoine gives the period reloading and the current reloading

 

[Rod Henrickson]

Thanks all

Yeah my typo on the Pyrodex Webb, but considering the 10% rule on Pyrodex P, either or shouldn't make a difference on these pipsqueak loads. Logic tells me that Jim Watson is probably correct and no matter what I load, I'm going to run out of case capacity before I run into pressure if I stick to black powder or Pyrodex P. But that's why I'm asking. I was born just as smokeless was being introduced so I'm a bit foggy on black powder now. I did contemplate shooting the Speers as they are, but I started doing some measurements on the brass and chamber walls and I don't think I'll get enough friction to hold the bullets into the case without a massive crimp which would be detrimental to brass life. The Speers are .312 inch and the bore was slugged at .3216 inch with a 1100 aluminum slug so they are about .010 inch undersized. The bullets at this point fall through the cylinder and can be pushed through the bore with practically no engraving. As soon as I get the dies from CH I'll cut a few cases in one of the lathes and try loading a few unadulterated bullets and see if I can get them to stay in the cases. I have to wait for the chucking reamers to come in from the USA before I can make the bump dies anyway. Thanks for the heads up about the loads being in Smith & Wesson Sixguns of the Old West: By Chicoine, Dan. I ordered a copy from Amazon.

 

[BMur]

I shot my 32-44 and revolving rifle using 32-20 rifle cases and two type bullets seen in photo 1.
The original load seen in photo 2 from 1891 manual.
I tried FFFG BLACK and Pyrodex P. The Black performed much better and gave a consistent burn where as the pyrodex P was inconsistent.
The best performer was the conical heavy seen in the 1st photo patterned at 2” -2 1/2” at 20 yards. (Bench rest).
The revolving rifle took the full length case where as the 32-44 required shortening the case. Both required case mouth expansion to .323.

Murph

 

[Hondo44]

Have you considered Triple 7 black powder substitute? Pyrodex is corrosive.

And I suggest a taper crimp instead of a roll crimp.

 

[BMur]

Multiple problems to solve.

The first problem I ran into is the 32/20 rifle case will NOT chamber all the way into the 32-44 or 320 RR cylinder chamber. Which of course was not a pleasant surprise.
See photo 1.
That’s as far as they will go. That includes Peters/Win/Rem/etc cases. All the same.

Since there are no sizing dies available for either obsolete caliber my solution was to use a very fine grit sand paper on my belt sander and polish the cases until they chambered.

Last photo shows my cutting and inspecting the cases “after polishing” for excessive brass thickness loss. The case photo’d was cut AFTER shooting with a FULL LOAD of FFFG BLACK. You can see the case is fire formed to chamber specs.

Results:
They are just barely within safe limits to use Black powder or substitute ONLY! No smokeless loads or the case will likely rupture in a catastrophic fashion.

So there are hurtles to jump through in order to maintain a safety margin. This isn’t a project for a novice handloader.
Clearances are very tight.

You will notice in my previous post the case heads I painted RED represents FULL LOADS. I painted reduced and Pyrodex loads WHITE.



Murph

 

[Rod Henrickson]

I've actually never played with Triple7 powder, Hondo. I have been doing a bit of reading up on it and there is a load listed on Hodgdons site and there is a rifle/pistol load for the 32-20 with a 90 grain bullet which should almost equal what I'm trying to accomplish with the 32-44 S&W with a 93 grain bullet. They are claiming 11,000 PSI with that load which is right on the edge of what the S&W #3 was rated to so I may drop it down a grain or two to be safe. I'll have to make a long, narrow, dipper that holds exactly 16 grains of FFFG and then use it to create an equal charge of Triple7 to get an accurate weight/volume load. They say less 10% weight for PyrodexP and less 15% weight for Triple7. But simply throwing the volume and then weighing it will be safer and then I can record the charge weight for future use. They claim the Triple7 does not require compression, but must not have an air space, just like black powder or Pyrodex. They also warn that Triple7 can get pretty dangerous pretty fast with compressed loads. It's kind of hard to guestimate how much case capacity I'm going to have at this point as I don't have the dies yet. Worse yet they are en-route from CH Tool & Die in the very capable hands of the USPS who will relay them into the very IN-CAPABLE hands of Canada post who, once again are going on strike this Friday. I may not see the fawking dies until Xmas at this rate.

So Murph, I tried to make sense of what you said and I'm a trifle confuzzled. When you say you polished the cases. It looks like you thinned the case walls so the full length 32-20 Winchester case would fit in the freebore of the chambers. The way I understand it is that, there is actually a chamber and throat in the 32-44 S&W cylinder and you have to cut the 32-20 Winchester cases down. The case length for the 32-20 Winchester is 1.315 inch and the case length of the 32-44 S&W is supposedly .967 inch so you have to cut .348 inch off of the 32-20 Winchester cases before you even get started. According to the info that I've been able to dig up, the actual chamber length of the 32-44 S&W is .980 inches. The freebore in the cylinder is supposed to be the same diameter as the groove diameter of the barrel. For me, shortening cases is no problem as I have ER40 collet chucks for both of my machines and I can simply put in a collet stop and grasp the rims and run a .32 caliber pilot in the tailstock and use a parting tool to zip them to any length I want and then chamfer them. I can easily do 130 per hour that way.

I could be wrong about all this and one of the collectors here might know more about the case and cylinder dimensions than I do at this point and hopefully chip in.

I did find a comparison photo of the 32-44 S&W and it's only slightly longer than the 32 S&W and the 32 Colt long.

 

[BMur]

Hey Rod,
Sounds like you’re going down the right road. The 93 grain bullet might be a bit heavy as the original bullet was 83 grains. That’s the bullet I used in my range test as photo’d in my first post. That is the original 32-44 bullet cast from an original period iron mold.
The 32-20 case works but requires a significant amount of modification to actually work. That’s what I was getting at.
Your CH custom dies might do the trick “IF” they can resize the 32-20 case to chamber. I hope they work but I’m not sure that the die will do enough for the case to chamber all the way.

Yes, the polishing process did remove a lot of brass thickness but only enough to chamber all the way and snug.

You have to open up the case mouth also. The dies won’t help you there. Not much though since you have to cut the cases down to fit correctly in the chamber.

Make sure the cases do NOT run up beyond the case stop. Better to be a little short than too long.

Also, actual pressure will be in the neighborhood of 9,000 CUP. Since you’re using a pistol with 6 1/2” bbl. Unless you decide to use the heavier bullet then maybe a bit higher. Remember you are cutting the case down so your powder charge will be much less than the normal 32/20. Right around 10-11 grains. A lot less than 18 grains. I was right around that load with the Revolving Rifle. Definitely not a pip-squeak round.

Murph

 

[Rod Henrickson]

I started cutting the cases down. They have kind of a silly recommended case length so I measured the chambers in the milling machine with an inside indicator and came up with a starting length of .970 inch. I cut the cases in a lathe with a tool post grinder and a fine screw head cutting saw and thought I'd toss a video up on Youtube so folks can understand how simple it is. All I use to hold the cases is a case holding assembly from a Lyman case trimmer. On some of the longer cases like the Ultra Mags you should use a center in the tailstock and run it in the case mouth to break chatter. Sometimes you have to play with your feeds and speeds to do the same with any case, but once you get rolling you can chop em off like-a-bat-out-of-hell. Rather than upload the video here and waste their server space I'll just post a link. Hope it works. Youtube puts up some silly countdown thingy on all new videos for the first little while so you may have to scroll through that BS. Silly Liberals !

https://youtu.be/KyuXN6xbcW0

 

[Rod Henrickson]

Another silly question regarding black powder.

Of course I'm going to take Webbs advice and try shooting the 98 grain hollow base wad cutters conventionally. I'm very lazy and if they work and group reasonably well, I won't have to make the bump dies and reform the slugs. The spooky part is, even 8 grains of FFFG ends up being a highly compressed load. To the point that when I knock the bullets out with a kinetic puller, I have to pick the powder out with a dental pick.

Now I'm sure we have all heard the analogy that you just fill pistol cases to the top with Black Powder and then crush a bullet down on top of it and crimp it hard so the bullet doesn't pop back out. But, is that sort of heavy compression liable to cause excessive pressures? Or is is that sort of monkey business just fine?

After cutting the cases to .970 inch, they drop right into the cylinder and fit perfectly. After closing there is .005 inch of negative headspace which is as close as damn is to swearing and the cylinder spins like a Swiss watch. The postman dropped off the dies I ordered from the fine folks at CH yesterday and everything works tickety-boo. I just haven't fired it yet.

 

[Jim Watson]

The spooky part is, even 8 grains of FFFG ends up being a highly compressed load. To the point that when I knock the bullets out with a kinetic puller, I have to pick the powder out with a dental pick.

Now I'm sure we have all heard the analogy that you just fill pistol cases to the top with Black Powder and then crush a bullet down on top of it and crimp it hard so the bullet doesn't pop back out. But, is that sort of heavy compression liable to cause excessive pressures? Or is is that sort of monkey business just fine?

I can't say about a revolver, but it doesn't take much powder compression to solidify the charge in a .38-55. I have pulled bullets, picked out the card wad, and had to pick out the caked powder. Shooting is fine.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Black Powder performs best with some compression. The old
45-70-500 rounds from the Frankfort Arsenal were so compressed
the powder can only be removed with an ice pick. But that was for
a rifle. Most authorities say 1/16" compression is fine and even
desirable. For a good treatise on loading black powder, I recom-
mend reading J. S. and Pat Wolf's booklet: Loading Cartridges
for the Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[Jay Hall]

Hi There,

First off, Pyrodex is NOT a 'by weight' replacement for Black Powder.
Pyrodex is used in equal Volume to Black Powder.

Second, Why not try the bullets the conventional way. The skirt should
expand enough to seal. It is worth a try and you won't have to go to
such lengths to generate ammo.

Cheers!
Webb

That is a great #3 you have and if it were me, being as rare as it is, would retire it and NEVER shoot it again.

 

[Rod Henrickson]

Hi Jay
Here in Canada it's illegal to take a handgun out into the back 40 and shoot gophers and pop cans. You can only shoot them at a government approved range. We can't even buy conventional handguns any longer. We can keep what we currently have and when we die they are turned over to the crown for destruction.

The antique class handguns are not controlled at all and I can take them out and shoot them anywhere that I have legal permission to shoot. Since the handgun ban everyone and his dog has been importing antique class handguns to shoot. It's the only way we can do it now. So, I will shoot it! LOL

The Pyrodex was just a brain fart on my part. I know the ratios. As said I am going to try to shoot them conventionally first because I am kinda lazy and even though I already bought the reamers to make the bump dies, I would rather not go to all the trouble. The compression thing was scaring me a bit as I have never compressed any load that much except in a 30x378 Wolff back in about 1977 or 1978 when I shot 1000 yards. I used to shoot 220 grain Lapua pencils out of it and put in a smidgim of unique to get the furnace going and then fill it right to the top with N205 and through a long drop tube and crunch a bullet down on top of it. We never did even bother to weigh the N205. We used to get about 2700 FPS out of it which was pretty quick for the day. I remember that it was pretty hard on cases and we had no amounts of ignition problems at times. Just like Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd. Click, fizzle - BOOM!

Another thing that has me a bit concerned is the lube on those Speer bullets. I'm sure that it was never designed or intended to be used with black powder so I may end up having to clean the bore every 20 or 30 rounds. I may even end up having to cast and lube my own bullets which was another road that I didn't want to travel. For now I have 24 rounds loaded to test with the 98 grain HBWC and 8 grains of FFFG, but I'm stuck because the indoor ranges don't allow black powder and it's going to take a couple of weeks to get a membership at one of the outdoor ranges.