Loaded Question

[tocohillsguy]

Okay I'm relatively new to the gun world, but I'm a traditionalist by nature. I can't seem to warm to plastic, striker fired pistols. S&W on the other hand seems determined to stop production of its metal framed pistols. So why did S&W make this decision? Is the M&P a better pistol than the 3rd gen pistols, or is it just cheaper to manufacture? Why is the public drawn to the plastic guns? Are they more reliable? They're lighter but what other benefits do they have to recommend them over the 3rd gen pistols?

 

[tocohillsguy]

Okay I'm relatively new to the gun world, but I'm a traditionalist by nature. I can't seem to warm to plastic, striker fired pistols. S&W on the other hand seems determined to stop production of its metal framed pistols. So why did S&W make this decision? Is the M&P a better pistol than the 3rd gen pistols, or is it just cheaper to manufacture? Why is the public drawn to the plastic guns? Are they more reliable? They're lighter but what other benefits do they have to recommend them over the 3rd gen pistols?

 

[625smith]

Personally I don't like plastic guns of any brand. I have owned several plastic guns in the past. Maybe I am also a traditionalist. I think times have changed and people like the high tech look of plastic? There are definitely weight advantages to plastic. There are certainly manufacturing and cost benefits that the consumer doesn't benefit from. I prefer all stainless S&W auto but that is my opinion. My brother in-law has a Springfield XD in 45 auto. It shoots very well. I have shot it however like all the plastic guns I have fired it has too much muzzle flip for my taste.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

Plastic is the future. Although they are different, the feel is similar and they can be as good a gun as their metal counterparts. I am a traditionalist as well and I think that the S&W Model 28 is the "prettiest" gun out there. You have to go by the gun. In a fight, I would rather have a good plastic gun than a bad metal gun. The newer plastic guns tend to have higher capacity magazines and do not corrode. Of course, it is easier/cheaper to injection mold plastic than metal My latest acquisition is an M&P9. It is a sweet shooter and designed to be used, and I look forward to shooting it as well as my more "traditional guns". It kind of looks "pretty" too - in an evil black handgun kind of way.

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[tocohillsguy]

I'll concede that plastic is the future, but is it better? It's light weight, cheaper to manufacturer (although cost savings don't seem to be reflected in price), doesn't rust. A negative is increased muzzle flip. Are there other pros and cons? Is the striker fired system more reliable than the traditional hammer? Personally I find the striker fired system a little disconcerting, but maybe I'm wrong to feel that way about it. There must be some advantages I'm not aware of.

 

[WR Moore]

Originally posted by tocohillsguy:
It's light weight, cheaper to manufacturer (although cost savings don't seem to be reflected in price), doesn't rust. A negative is increased muzzle flip. Are there other pros and cons? Is the striker fired system more reliable than the traditional hammer? .... There must be some advantages I'm not aware of.

You need to price the all metal pistols again. We needed to replace our 1006 service pistols, for less than we'd have paid to replace about 1/2 the service pistols in use, we bought M&P40s for everyone. Price matters to everyone.

You have reduced maintenance, no need to detail strip the weapons periodically due to the design, and the frames can be configured to fit a wider assortment of hands. The ability to more easily lower the bore axis largely eliminates muzzle flip. The plastic frame also doesn't leech heat out of your hand in cold weather like metal does.

A system that uses one type of trigger stroke is easier to train on and has produced higher average qualification scores when compared to TDA pistols. Having used both, I think it's a much better combat pistol. Am I going to hit 100 yard plates like I did with the 1006? Probably not going to try.

For a big enough order, S&W will break out the machine tapes and do a run of metal frame pistols. Look at the special orders the various distributors have done over the years.

 

[greengael]

Houston, I agree with you that "plastic " is the future. The first time I heard that magic word it was when Mr. Robinson whispered it to Benjamin in The Graduate, 1968-69?I think, on some reflection ,the reasons for the popularity and consequent proliferation of new materials in firearms of many types is the commercial success of Glock.If I may draw a parallel to golf, in the early to mid eighties Ping put out the ugliest irons anyone had ever seen, cast, cavity backed, weird grips, oversized etc. The thing is that they worked, they became very popular and spawned a host of "me too" ugly tech heavy "game improvement clubs".The industry is just now recovering to the point that they are trying to incorporate some beauty back into their offerings while keeping some of the genuine technological improvements which have been made.If you go to ranges where the primary focus is skeet or sporting clays I have seen many high quality high priced shotguns in use, side by side or over and under. I think there will always be a pricepoint market, always one for "techies",[smile] and one for more traditional designs. This will probably work cyclically as well. [imho]

 

[tocohillsguy]

Originally posted by WR Moore:

Originally posted by tocohillsguy:
It's light weight, cheaper to manufacturer (although cost savings don't seem to be reflected in price), doesn't rust. A negative is increased muzzle flip. Are there other pros and cons? Is the striker fired system more reliable than the traditional hammer? .... There must be some advantages I'm not aware of.

You need to price the all metal pistols again. We needed to replace our 1006 service pistols, for less than we'd have paid to replace about 1/2 the service pistols in use, we bought M&P40s for everyone. Price matters to everyone.

You have reduced maintenance, no need to detail strip the weapons periodically due to the design, and the frames can be configured to fit a wider assortment of hands. The ability to more easily lower the bore axis largely eliminates muzzle flip. The plastic frame also doesn't leech heat out of your hand in cold weather like metal does.

A system that uses one type of trigger stroke is easier to train on and has produced higher average qualification scores when compared to TDA pistols. Having used both, I think it's a much better combat pistol. Am I going to hit 100 yard plates like I did with the 1006? Probably not going to try.

For a big enough order, S&W will break out the machine tapes and do a run of metal frame pistols. Look at the special orders the various distributors have done over the years.

Some interesting points, however, your position on a single trigger stoke versus TDA isn't necessarily a plastic versus metal argument. After all S&W manufactured DAO metal guns and still manufactures SAO metal guns. For some reason, it seems that many frown on DAO metal guns, but have no problem with the concept in a plastic gun. Not sure why. Perhaps you covered this in your reply and I missed it, but is there a benefit to striker fired versus hammer fired apart from striker fired being DAO?

 

[MK]

Visually, I much prefer the all metal guns.
But as a tool, it doesn't really matter to me.
All I really care about is that it goes bang
when I pull the trigger.
They are a bit lighter, and not prone to
corrosion or rust. Good for a "woods" gun,
which is how I usually use mine if I'm actually
carrying it in a holster. I don't feel the need
to baby it like I would a pristine 3rd gen.
Heck, one of those I wouldn't want to use out
in the sticks too much. Too purty to get dirt,
scratches, on it. Well, unless I had a beater
3rd gen..

 

[WR Moore]

Originally posted by tocohillsguy:
Some interesting points, however, your position on a single trigger stoke versus TDA isn't necessarily a plastic versus metal argument. After all S&W manufactured DAO metal guns and still manufactures SAO metal guns. For some reason, it seems that many frown on DAO metal guns, but have no problem with the concept in a plastic gun. Not sure why. Perhaps you covered this in your reply and I missed it, but is there a benefit to striker fired versus hammer fired apart from striker fired being DAO?

Metal vs plastic gets right down to one thing: price. Price and the lie that the Glock was "Just like a revolver, but it shoots a whole bunch of times." is what established the plastic pistol as a viable alternative to all metal service pistols. [Hint: PRICE enabled belief of the lie.]

Hammer fired DAO pistols generally suffer from a much longer trigger stroke than a striker fired pistol. In the case of the S&W pistols, they suffered from a horrible overtravel in many production runs. We're talking like 3/16 of an inch overtravel. Which is really wierd considering the minimal overtravel of the DA stroke in the TDA pistols the DAO guns were based on.

That's a horrible handicap, cause your fundamentals have to be outstanding to group adequately. You can't even use the excuse that revolvers had long DA pulls (true), because most of them had minimal overtravel. That issue can be easily solved in individual cases with a carefully fitted overtravel stop (some overtravel is necessary) or a complete action redesign that was never done-or the use of an existing conversion that wasn't invented there (NIH strikes again!). Either would have added cost to a pistol that was already almost twice the price of a plastic competitor.

 

[tocohillsguy]

Originally posted by WR Moore:

Hammer fired DAO pistols generally suffer from a much longer trigger stroke than a striker fired pistol. In the case of the S&W pistols, they suffered from a horrible overtravel in many production runs. We're talking like 3/16 of an inch overtravel. Which is really wierd considering the minimal overtravel of the DA stroke in the TDA pistols the DAO guns were based on.

That's a horrible handicap, cause your fundamentals have to be outstanding to group adequately. You can't even use the excuse that revolvers had long DA pulls (true), because most of them had minimal overtravel. That issue can be easily solved in individual cases with a carefully fitted overtravel stop (some overtravel is necessary) or a complete action redesign that was never done-or the use of an existing conversion that wasn't invented there (NIH strikes again!). Either would have added cost to a pistol that was already almost twice the price of a plastic competitor.

Thank you for helping to explain this to me. I guess this is at least one reason why the striker fired pistols are so popular. Still not sure how plastic vs metal affects the trigger mechanism. I know Kahr manufactures metal pistols with a striker fired trigger, but it seems that is an exception. For the most part striker fired pistols seem to be plastic and hammered pistols are metal. Is this a historical accident? Did the striker fired pistol just happen to come on the scene at the same time as the plastic (as was the case with Glocks), or is there a reason hammer fired mechanisms don't work well with plastic frames? As for striker fired pistols, it seems that many find them less safe because the trigger is lighter than a TDA first pull and they don't typically have an external safety (although I think S&W has recently added one). I've heard of "Glock leg", with the most infamous example being Plaxico Burress, but I've never heard of Kahr leg or Sig leg. Are the triggers that different between the Glock and its striker fired competitors?

 

[shovelwrench]

Personally I think there are some things that just should'nt be plastic OR have any plastic parts.

Guns are one of those things.

There is no reason why these plastic guns can't be made by investment cast aluminum or stainless(or MIM?). Most of Rugers firearms are cast. SURE, they'd cost a little more, but would last indefinitly.

Maybe one of you guys know, when did the Glock come out? How many rounds can you put through one before its "done"?

 

[Chris K]

You will be seeing a whole new crop of new .45 caliber semi-autos from most of the major manufacturers, largely due to the SOCOM trials (which were ultimately "canceled") due to lack of funding.

Now these companies are bringing their products to the law enforcement and civilian markets (also in the 9mm and .40 calibers, partly because they are better weopons but also because of the extensive research and development costs they incurred. The M&P is out, the new Springfield XDm is recently out, the Sig P250 just hit the distributors, the HK is coming, Beretta Storm, etc etc.

One of the neatest features specified by SOCOM included interchageable grips to fit different sized hands---I bought a brand new M&P about a month and a 1/2 ago---it came with 3 interchangeable grip panels that fit so flush you can't even tell they can be removed. There were several other specifications that included interchangeability of barrels and calibers---One Special Ops firearm that could be converted to multiple uses. I am hoping that in a year or two S&W will offer a .22 conversion kit for my .45!!!

You are going to begin seeing all this stuff at your dealer soon.....the major gun magazines are already publishing stories. These ARE better, modern, state of the art firearms, and have been designed with ergonomics and versatility in mind to fit the hand of a 200 # marine or a 125 # female law enforcement officer.