Loads for 38/44 Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman

[quinn]

I understand the 38/44s were designed for heavier loads than the 38 special. Some of the guns apparently have been modified to take 357. Has anyone worked up modern equivalent of the old 38/44 loads? None of my manual show it. I now load both 38 and 357 and wonder if the 38/44 load was somewhat comparable to the current 38+P. Thanks for any info.

 

[Iggy]

Check out these threads.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/212108-shot-some-real-38-44-ammo.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/212111-38-44-ammo-testing-factory-reload.html

 

[cjw3]

12.0 grains of 2400 + 158 grain LSWC gets me 1120 in my 5" postwar HD.

There is still leeway to go up in this particular gun, but that's close enough to the original ballistics for me.

 

[Alk8944]

I understand the 38/44s were designed for heavier loads than the 38 special. Some of the guns apparently have been modified to take 357. Has anyone worked up modern equivalent of the old 38/44 loads? None of my manual show it. I now load both 38 and 357 and wonder if the 38/44 load was somewhat comparable to the current 38+P. Thanks for any info.

The old Lyman #43 manual showed .38 Special loads "For heavy frame guns" that ran in the 25,000 PSI range.

.38-44 IS .38 Special, just loaded to higher pressure. Current +P limit is 20,000 PSI, .38-44 loads were significantly above this limit and even higher than the pressure level indicated by the old Lyman book.

The best bullets to use to replicate the .38-44 loads are Lyman 358156GC, 357446, or RCBS .38-158 SWCGC. Load them as follows:

6.5 gr. Unique w/standard primer

11.0 gr. 2400 w/Fed 200
Note; Alliant specifies a Magnum primer with 2400!

7.1 gr. 4756 w/standard primer

Any of the above will get you in the 1150 FPS range with a 6 1/2" barrel and 1115+/- with a 5". If you have a chronograph, and you are just spitting in the wind if you do not, start with these loads and adjust as needed to get to ca. 1115 FPS with a 5" barrel and you will be very close to what was once published for .38-44 factory ammunition.

The .38-44 was never loaded with jacketed bullets by the factories. There was a metal-capped bullet. If you try loading jacketed bullets you need to settle for about 100-150 FPS less that with cast to stay in the appropriate pressure range.

If you are not already aware, velocities can vary drastically from one gun to another. A good example is 11.8/2400.158 SWCGC. I have chronographed this and had velocity range from 1086 in one 5" revolver to 1236 in another 6", far greater than the usually referenced 25 FPS per unch of barrel. It is also common for factory ammunition to chronograph significantly slower than published velocities, often by as much as 150-200 FPS!

 

[Kinman]

I've just gotten back into reloading for the .38 due to a recent love affair with my '55 38-44.
I read up on all the information and tried 12.0gn of 2400 in both 158gn LSWC and 140gn JHP, I am so stoked with the accuracy potential of this pistol that it has become my all time favorite to shoot, I still like the little K-22...but am planning on carrying the 38-44 afield with me and have loaded up some speer shot shells for snakes using heavier 7.5 shot with 5.5gn of Unique, makes a head shattering pattern at 10ft.
I find no need to exceed the 12gn loading as it delivers all the accuracy I could ask for with the terrific knockdown of a well delivered bullet.

 

[OFT II]

11.5 grains of 2400 for me in my 1954 HD. This also makes a good intermediate load for use in 357s. Easy on the ears and accurate in every thing I shoot it in.

 

[125JHP]

I just looked at my Lyman-ideal # 40 manual from 1955 and like ALK8944 indicates they have a listing for heavy frame guns. Using the 158gr #358156GC bullet they show the following MAXIMUM loading... 13.5 gr of 2400 # 1220fps
When they list the 160gr Keith Hollow base-HP they drop to a max load of 12 grains of 2400.

I like looking at the old load book data, but in reality they were flying by the seat of their pants. The fact that the guns didn't blow up with some of these loads is a miracle. When the load book OEM's started using psi measuring devices in the late 90s they found out several of the loads deemed safe under the CUP standard, were way over SAMMI pressure standards - that's why (IMO) a lot of the load data was "watered down".

 

[quinn]

Wow! A lot of great information. Thanks all. I have 158 gr SWC bullets on hand but no 2400. I've been using 231 for my 38 special loads. I'll have to pick up some 2400 at the next GS. Years ago I used 2400 almost exclusively in antique black powder single shot rifles loading such cartridges as 44-77 Sharpes BN and 43 Danish. Haven't had any in years, though. I think this will be fun. I have newly acquired post war 38-44 Heavy Duty in 4" and Outdoorsman in 6.5"

 

[bwickens]

Anybody care to try one of these in a 640?

 

[VAdoublegunner]

Check out Handloader #243, Oct 2006, for Brian Pearce's excellent article on 38-44S&W loads using more recent powders. Good info on the history of the cartridge as well.

I have been just recently experimenting with one load in a first year Ruger SP101 chambered in 38 Special. Most of the loads run to 25kpsi level, but some are higher. They can approach low end 357 loads. Since the SP101 was found capable of handling 125gr 357s (it was subsequently lengthened in frame window and cylinder to handle full on 357s) with a simple rechambering, I thought it was a suitable candidate for some performance improvement. I particularly liked Power Pistol and the 125gr JHP loads.

 

[ChuckS1]

Where's that pesky Speer #8 manual with the 158 grain LSWC loads using SR4756?

 

[Cerberus62]

Where's that pesky Speer #8 manual with the 158 grain LSWC loads using SR4756?

I can't help you with #8, but I have Speer #6 and Lyman #38 & #44 as pdf's

Some intertesting 38 Special data there, with the Lyman developed in a K-frame Model 14, and the Speer data labeled "38 Special K-38."

 

[David LaPell]

I understand the 38/44s were designed for heavier loads than the 38 special. Some of the guns apparently have been modified to take 357. Has anyone worked up modern equivalent of the old 38/44 loads? None of my manual show it. I now load both 38 and 357 and wonder if the 38/44 load was somewhat comparable to the current 38+P. Thanks for any info.

If you need it or would like it, I can email you the October 2006 Handloader article by Brian Pearce on the .38-44, it's been pretty much the basis for all of my loads.

 

[Cpt. Obvious]

Id be interested in that article, pm with my email incoming...

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Where's that pesky Speer #8 manual with the 158 grain LSWC loads using SR4756?

That load is extensively used in my .357 guns. It's a darn good load.

 

[tommy F]

Taffin posted an article in Amer Handgunner last year, try online seach.

 

[David LaPell]

Here are a couple articles on the .38-44.

.38-44 Outdoorsman: A Handgun for Hunting Deer (and Rum-Runners) - Gun News at Guns.com

The First Magnum

 

[38SPL HV]

Try Speer's 38 Special +P 158 gr lead loads using Alliant Power Pistol. It's max loading using 6.0 grs Power Pistol, CCI-500 primers and Speer 158 gr lead bullet duplicates the velocity of Remington's 38 Special "Hi-Speed" 158 gr lead load (an actual "Hi-Speed" round was chronographed at 1,025 fps by Speer in a 6 inch S&W revolver; although, Remington factory test barrel ballistics saw 1,090 fps). Speer's 6.0 grs Power Pistol load measured 1,037 fps…statistically the same as the factory "Hi-Speed" in a revolver). These "Hi-Speed" rounds were the precursor to +P rounds. The very high velocity 38-44 (1,100 fps 158 gr lead) were discontinued after WW2 and replaced with the "Hi-Speed."

So if you purchased a brand new S&W Heavy Duty 5 inch in the 1950s and asked for the appropriate ammunition, you would get Remington's "Hi-Speed" or Winchester/Western versions.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

HOLY NECRO-THREAD!

I eschew Power Pistol in revolvers; the blast and flash are a mind-numbing experience. Hodgdon HS-6 has been serving up the same ballistics for over 60 years without the annoyance. Plus, it's not an Alliant product.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Takes me back to my casting and loading days.
11 Grains of 2400 under a 150 or 160 gr bullet sounds familiar!
Shot some in my Outdoorsman, shot most of them in 357s.