The Feds are going after small, brick & mortar gun shops in the metro Detroit area. Their auditors have already shut down five stores that were each in business for 30+ years. They're not going after the big box stores that have the money to fight them, just the little guys who can't. Don't know if it's happening anywhere else. If it isn't, it probably will be.
Local Gun Shops Targeted
- Thread starter Donn
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What is your source on this - I'd like to pass it on to some folks.
Telecaster
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If the stores are breaking the law, I don't see the problem. If they're just being harassed, then that's a problem.
Well put. Details are needed before a reaction being offered.
What has changed dramatically in the last two years is the character of violations for which they are revoking FFLs. In the past, a major violation, or a history of minor violations was the bar. These days a minor paperwork violation with no history of infractions can get a shop shut down.
The ATF also added a large number of compliance investigators to facilitate the process.
This subject has been widely reported, and discussed previously several times on this forum.
25 Congressmen Demand Investigation Into ATF Revocation of FFLs From Law-Abiding Business Owners | In the News | Congresswoman Michelle Fischbach
The Biden Administration's Zero Tolerance Policy is Crushing Gun Sellers | GOA
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Please define "going after". What exactly does that mean?
Maybe read the links?
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I'm not at all sure this is nefarious. It could be that after years of lax enforcement the now-stepped up enforcement has caught everybody off-guard. Could be complacency on the part of the FFL's. Yes the rules are complicated. But that's the job. My range has stopped selling to foreign nationals that are legal permanent residents because enforcement on those is strict and it's a whole other level of complexity for those green-card holding customers.
But to me, it looks like a single obvious failure will indeed get you canceled. Then again this is basic stuff that should not happen. The BATFE isn't there to train you on how to do it right. Don't we always say they need to enforce existing laws? They are.
Top 10 Reasons the ATF Revokes FFLs
But to me, it looks like a single obvious failure will indeed get you canceled. Then again this is basic stuff that should not happen. The BATFE isn't there to train you on how to do it right. Don't we always say they need to enforce existing laws? They are.
Top 10 Reasons the ATF Revokes FFLs
Apparently Rip Van Winkle and family are in town for the holidays.
This is a concerted effort to destroy the Second Amendment. Our govt is a multi headed hydra and is implementing numerous avenues of attack on our rights.
Attacking FFLs is one. I'm amazed at the naïveté of the above posts.
This is a concerted effort to destroy the Second Amendment. Our govt is a multi headed hydra and is implementing numerous avenues of attack on our rights.
Attacking FFLs is one. I'm amazed at the naïveté of the above posts.
We lost a store in Houston that had been here forever. I found out too late and lost a deposit I had down on a new gun.
I wrote about this....
....several months ago, but people seemed to discount what I was saying.
....several months ago, but people seemed to discount what I was saying.
LVSteve
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That is a vendor training issue. I know this because I purchased firearms using the "non-resident alien with a hunting license" and the "Green Card holder" methods before I got my citizenship. In a couple of stores it was pretty clear that I knew more about the process than the FFL. That's hardly surprising given that the "non-resident alien" thing rarely comes up. I went with originals and copies of the necessary proofs and all was good. The biggest delay was NV DPS confirming that my visa was still live.
As for Green Card holders, we have a shed load of those in Vegas, so I suspect the local FFLs are more up to speed. I did buy a rifle from a Utah dealer at a gun show and she raised her eyebrows a bit and said come back in 90 minutes as she would have to process via a NV FFL*. I did so and she had a big smile on her face. "Nice to meet somebody who knows the rules and comes prepared".
* It's a FEDERAL license but you cannot use all of its powers outside your home state. Only in America.
First off, I am a small FFL licensed dealer. Many of us have not been audited for many years, in my case over 25 years since I have been inspected/audited. Years of doing things the same way isn't always the right way. I urge any FFL holder to become a member of the NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation), they have a wealth of information available to help dealers stay in compliance. The $100 a year is well worth it.
What I am reading is that firearms traces are the biggest reason for revocation. When a firearm has been used in a crime or seized by LE for other reasons, an ATF trace is started to determine where, when and who sold to. An FFL that has a large number of traces indicates that firearms are being sold to "straw buyers" a BIG No, No.
Ivan the Butcher
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It could also indicate that law enforcement didn't respond to a store's call for help on a straw buyer!
The #7 store in the nation of guns used in a crime is just outside Columbus, and they call for "Back-up" on felons and straw buyers and get NO RESPONSE!
This store gets frequent visits for records checks. When I've bought guns there they do a triple check to see all the "I"s are dotted and the "T"s are crossed, and still have a few get passed, but they sell One to Three Hundred guns a day on average, Last count I heard was 7 problems for a 90-day period! Not bad at all when you realize how bad the literacy for the customers and employees is!
In some senses of the word "Unfunded Mandate", the GCA of 68 calls for many No-No's buy won't pay for prosecution of the perps. they current ATFExyz has a very big job, and a very closed mind!
Ivan
That's true in some cases. There is an FFL around these parts selling about 1,000 firearms per week. Many traces lead here yet nothing happens, ever. There are rumors but I shall not share them here. Just like everywhere else: "Some animals are more equal than others." Joe
gjgalligan
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Check the MGO forum. It was discussed there a while ago.
There is absolutely no mention of Detroit Metro in either link but lots of conjecture in both.
I did a few searches and can not find one article or post about Detroit and a Fed crackdown. We must be vigilant about making sure of your sources before posting these things.
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GypsmJim
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I got my pistol permit and bought my first handgun in 1971. Started reloading only a few months later. Right close to me were 4 gun shops. One had been in business since the 1940's and the others had 10 years or more behind them.
In the late 1970's over the course of a year 3 of the shops were closed down. The rumor was that they were all closed due to delinquent back taxes. Don't know if that was true or not.
The 4th one closed just last year. Dad died, the son wanted to retire and the grandson moved away and had other interests.
I don't know what the current state of affairs is, but we have had a few new shops open recently and ll seem to be thriving. I'm sure the govmt want to eliminate gun shop, but it hasn't happened here yet. (fingers crossed)
In the late 1970's over the course of a year 3 of the shops were closed down. The rumor was that they were all closed due to delinquent back taxes. Don't know if that was true or not.
The 4th one closed just last year. Dad died, the son wanted to retire and the grandson moved away and had other interests.
I don't know what the current state of affairs is, but we have had a few new shops open recently and ll seem to be thriving. I'm sure the govmt want to eliminate gun shop, but it hasn't happened here yet. (fingers crossed)
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My wife's relatives....
....were as honest and diligent as the day is long. Somehow, the Feds got wind of a 'straw purchase' made in the store, I doubt that it was intentional on the part of the seller, but they closed the entire pawn shop down and showed up at my wife's nephew's house even though he had quit two weeks before the incident and gave him all kinds of HEAT and scared him kinda bad. I wish I knew the details, if they didn't pass the 4473, it's clearly their fault, but if they didn't know it was a straw purchase and the person lied on the 4473, that ain't good blaming the store for that. I believe that they are using ANY discrepancy for grounds to shut the places down. This happened in Mims, Florida.
This came a few days after the gun range I frequented went ape **** because they thought I 'might' have an illegal stock on my AR, which was ridiculous, as it was a standard collapsing stock, but apparently they had been scared by some crackdown on gun store/ranges somewhere. I think I'll ask the owner about this incident.
....were as honest and diligent as the day is long. Somehow, the Feds got wind of a 'straw purchase' made in the store, I doubt that it was intentional on the part of the seller, but they closed the entire pawn shop down and showed up at my wife's nephew's house even though he had quit two weeks before the incident and gave him all kinds of HEAT and scared him kinda bad. I wish I knew the details, if they didn't pass the 4473, it's clearly their fault, but if they didn't know it was a straw purchase and the person lied on the 4473, that ain't good blaming the store for that. I believe that they are using ANY discrepancy for grounds to shut the places down. This happened in Mims, Florida.
This came a few days after the gun range I frequented went ape **** because they thought I 'might' have an illegal stock on my AR, which was ridiculous, as it was a standard collapsing stock, but apparently they had been scared by some crackdown on gun store/ranges somewhere. I think I'll ask the owner about this incident.
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LVSteve
Member
Now THERE's an interesting and unconventional suggestion
There were no links in the OP.
The OP posted no link, only innuendo.
More details would be helpful. However in a business as highly regulated as firearms sales and with complex local, state and federal rules, it's not difficult to find unintentional violations.
Question is whether or not they are being targeted and use these minor infractions to put them out of business?
Question is whether or not they are being targeted and use these minor infractions to put them out of business?
Nope, but there were a couple of VERY informative links in post #5 - just before the question about the definition of "going after" FFLs was raised in post #6.
This illustrates why it is important to read ALL of the previous posts (and relevant content) posted in a thread BEFORE posting a comment, since these threads are a "running conversation".
The OP is just the conversation starter. Following the thread and keeping up with the conversation requires reading MORE than just the OP's thoughts.
JMO, and YMMV.
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Without knowing the specifics of what's allegedly happening in Detroit, it's entirely possible that the ATF field office there is dealing with a local issue or situation.
Perhaps they've got a new Special Agent in Charge (SAC), who arrived and found that things were lax there, or that the Special Agents assigned to that office were not enforcing federal regulations appropriately.
Perhaps their SAC is bucking for a promotion, and looking to ingratiate himself with his bosses.
Perhaps their regional director has noticed a decrease in regulatory activity or inspections, and is leaning on the SAC.
It could be that an audit of the cases handled by that office revealed improper or inadequate oversight of the FFLs in their Area of Responsibility (AOR), thus leading to stricter enforcement.
There could be a problem with some FFLs in their AOR skirting the law, or failing to abide by the record keeping requirements spelled out in Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), thus provoking what is seen as a "crackdown".
What is almost certainly not happening is the execution of some scheme to disarm us, or destroy the 2nd Amendment. The ATF might have many faults, but they are simply a federal regulatory agency, and enforcing their section of the CFR is their mission.
Perhaps they've got a new Special Agent in Charge (SAC), who arrived and found that things were lax there, or that the Special Agents assigned to that office were not enforcing federal regulations appropriately.
Perhaps their SAC is bucking for a promotion, and looking to ingratiate himself with his bosses.
Perhaps their regional director has noticed a decrease in regulatory activity or inspections, and is leaning on the SAC.
It could be that an audit of the cases handled by that office revealed improper or inadequate oversight of the FFLs in their Area of Responsibility (AOR), thus leading to stricter enforcement.
There could be a problem with some FFLs in their AOR skirting the law, or failing to abide by the record keeping requirements spelled out in Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), thus provoking what is seen as a "crackdown".
What is almost certainly not happening is the execution of some scheme to disarm us, or destroy the 2nd Amendment. The ATF might have many faults, but they are simply a federal regulatory agency, and enforcing their section of the CFR is their mission.
Why would a gun store call local LE about a suspected straw buyer? You just say "No Sale" and do no background check.
Michigan FFL facts:
Number of dealers: about 3,700
Revocations in 2022: 1
Dealer license surrenders: 3
My educated guess is that very few inspections/audits were done in 2022 and 2023 is a catch up year.
Number of dealers: about 3,700
Revocations in 2022: 1
Dealer license surrenders: 3
My educated guess is that very few inspections/audits were done in 2022 and 2023 is a catch up year.
Well, that's a lot different than the original "news report". I had a friend who followed one principle when telling something, "Never let facts get in the way of good story"
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Reading the thread title, I thought he was talking about the recent rash of gun store breakins.
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