Location of 1st/3rd Mod. Single Shot 19308 ?

[Modelof1891]

This may be a long shot, but, I am looking for the buyer of this single shot. I see where the S&W 2nd Model Single Shot with serial number 19308 was sold by Rock Island Auction in Dec. of 2009 with an extra barrel 11373. The latch on this gun was serial number 480 which matches my serial number 480 2nd Model Single Shot. The latch number on my gun is 19510, a lot closer than the 480 on frame 19308.
One other piece of information that will help ID this sale. The barrel on the gun was also marked with a H.M.Pope # 708.
** new information**
The RIA book stated this being a Third Model Single Shot

Terry

 

[H. M. Pope]

I didn't think second model SS numbers went that high ?.
H. M. Pope

 

[rct269]

They don't, but-------there are 1st Model SS's out there (which letter as such) that are the spitting image of the 2nd Models (no recoil shields/cylinder stops and cuts/hands and cuts---and with the vertical milled "slots" on the frame) and others with stops/stop cuts and/or hands/hand cuts, but no "ears"-----and with or without the "slots". Think of them as transitional models. Kurt Vogler ("Hammerdown") came across (and bought) one-----serial number in the high 20K's, as I recall. It too was a "put-together" gun (mismatched serial numbers). I, in my infinite wisdom, told him it was a completely bogus gun. Jinks set me straight. That said, this is only the second one I've heard of. I imagine there are more-----hopefully with matching numbers----somewhere.
Ralph Tremaine

 

[H. M. Pope]

Ok,
Now I know what your talking about. 1891 didn't say it was a converted first and I didn't think of the converted ones as I never wanted one. I've had a few of them but I've always considered them nothing more than converted First Models.

I was always sure that the factory converted them as there exactly like the second models with the slots cut in the sides but have the cylinder hand cuts in the frame and have a high serial number, as you most likely know the real second model does not have the frame cuts for the hand and should be numbered in the know second model number range. As to them being hard to come by, well I've turned down a few when I first started collecting many years ago because of then not being original second models. Mr. Jenks mustn't be looking very hard to say he only seen two of them. I think your correct in saying that It was nothing more than a "put-together" gun ( mismatched serial numbers ) and converted to look like a second model but don't know if I would call it a "bogus" gun, after all it is an S&W, it's just not original and matching, like a re-finish, it may have been a blue when it was new and it's blue again, just not original.
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[rct269]

Not to pick a nit, but these are not converted frames-----they were made that way----first time around----within the 1st Model series----late within the series. I'm sure 1891 called it as he saw it---a 2nd Model. (If it looks like a duck, etc.-----it's a duck.) Hammerdown called it that way too. I took one look at the serial number and said, "No way---bogus gun!!" Then we talked to Jinks. ( And Jinks isn't the one who said he'd only seen two of them----that was me. And it may be I have seen more than that, but didn't know what I was looking at.) Now that I'm a lot older----and at least a little wiser, I'll pay closer attention next time---if there is a next time. And as far as matching numbers go, I'm reasonably certain and comfortable in the belief they left the factory with matching numbers---and became mismatched somewhere down the line----more's the pity.
Ralph Tremaine

 

[old top break]

This may be a long shot, but, I am looking for the buyer of this single shot. I see where the S&W 2nd Model Single Shot with serial number 19308 was sold by Rock Island Auction in Dec. of 2009 with an extra barrel 11373. The latch on this gun was serial number 480 which matches my serial number 480 2nd Model Single Shot. The latch number on my gun is 19510, a lot closer than the 480 on frame 19308.
One other piece of information that will help ID this sale. The barrel on the gun was also marked with a H.M.Pope # 708.

Terry

wow, good luck with your quest- I hope you find the original part and can persuade the owner to take it off and trade it to you. Be prepared to offer your latch plus money.

 

[H. M. Pope]

Not to pick a nit, but these are not converted frames-----they were made that way----first time around----within the 1st Model series----late within the series. I'm sure 1891 called it as he saw it---a 2nd Model. (If it looks like a duck, etc.-----it's a duck.) Hammerdown called it that way too. I took one look at the serial number and said, "No way---bogus gun!!" Then we talked to Jinks. ( And Jinks isn't the one who said he'd only seen two of them----that was me. And it may be I have seen more than that, but didn't know what I was looking at.) Now that I'm a lot older----and at least a little wiser, I'll pay closer attention next time---if there is a next time. And as far as matching numbers go, I'm reasonably certain and comfortable in the belief they left the factory with matching numbers---and became mismatched somewhere down the line----more's the pity.
Ralph Tremaine

Ralph, One of the best ways to gain Info is to "nit pick".

Like you say, if it looks like a duck etc., I have to say I've never seen a real second model with cuts for the hand and cylinder stop. Have seen first models with the "ears" cut of so that you couldn't use the frame with a cylinder, some had slots and some did not. I always called them converted first models because they all had the cuts for the hand and cylinder stop and a real second did not. The work on them was so good that I always figuered it was done at the factory. Cant say I've ever seen one with a five digit serial number that did not have the cuts. If that's what we're talking about, five digit serial numbers that do not have the cuts then I would agree, it wasn't a convert, it was made that way. And I would bet not many were made.
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[Modelof1891]

Well...I didn't intend to get into all this BUT since it has been brought up...

RIA Catalog one, Dec 4th, 5th, &6th of 2009 offered the single shot on page 142 as a Third Model Single Shot.... Mis-Titled from the start. May have been why I never payed it much attention since I collect the 1st and 2nd models.
The frame number is that of the 1st model...19308
The frame sides are that of a 3rd model, flat without recoil shield or cuts but the number is too high for a second or third model. But it is a Single Action.
I do own some 1st models within the 1 to 28,xxx numbers that do NOT have recoil shields but DO have the cut grooves in the sides.
So, I am not sure what to title this as???

Sorry for the quality on these pictures. Hard to get a good picture of a glossy picture.

Nice grips!!

 

[Club Gun Fan]

I have the following factory letter to my 1st model SN 20734.
I have a second barrel with it, but don't have either handy ,as it is in a safety deposit box at the bank. They are in an original box. It has a pair of Roper stocks on it. They were on it when I bought it. I bought it from a former S&W employee in 1986.

" We have researched your .22 Single Shot First Model, Prototype to Second Model, caliber .22 S&W long rifle, in company records which indicate that your handgun with serial number 20734, was shipped from our factory on August 21, 1907, and delivered to Iver Johnson Sporting Goods Co., Boston MA. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with an 8 inch barrel, blue finish, and check walnut extension target grips. Smith & Wesson manufactured a small group of these Prototype Second ModelSingle Shots numbered in the First Model series. These pistol all have the smooth frame with out the recoil ears and no milled groove. This revolver was probably assembled from left over parts in 1907. The barrel on the revolver 15069as taken off a single shot shipped in 1893 and replaced with a 10 inch barrel to fill that order. It was not uncommon at this time frame to use up various parts to complete orders."

 

[H Richard]

"This revolver was probably assembled from left over parts in 1907. The barrel on the revolver 15069as taken off a single shot shipped in 1893 and replaced with a 10 inch barrel to fill that order. It was not uncommon at this time frame to use up various parts to complete orders."

This makes it more possible that one I have might be factory. Mine is a 3rd model, S/N 8694, but with an 8" barrel S/N 3844 installed. When I got a ship date from Roy he mentioned the gun was shipped 1917 but the barrel was S/N to a gun shipped 1911. Who knows if the barrel was set aside to make a swap for the 1911 gun and then fitted as a special order for a 8" barrel. While I still believe this is a stretch, I guess stranger things have happened.

 

[H. M. Pope]

So how does one tell that some of the mis-matched Single Shots out there are "factory mis-match" did they mark them in any way ?.

Years ago I had a bunch of SS barrels, they seemed plentiful back then, I never looked at the numbers on them, just used them for shooting, if someone came to me and wanted a shorter or longer barrel it was not a problem to just put it on his frame, so how do we tell if it's something I put together years ago or a "factory mis-match".

By the way, I've also had a lot of factory finished barrels that never had numbers on them. Myself, from a shooting standpoint, as long as it shot good I could care less, but from a collectors standpoint, I would sooner have an un-numbered barrel than one with a number that did not match the frame. I thought the whole idea of having a matching numbered barrel was to prove that you have a factory built gun, not a put-together by a guy like me.
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[rct269]

The RIA gun is, by virtue of its serial number, a 1st Model. It appears to have no "ears". Whether it left the factory that way or not is anybody's guess. RIA's choice of words (strongly) suggests this gun has been refinished, and the "ears" may have gone away at the time that was done.

And speaking of RIA, let me suggest one should be very, very careful in doing business with these people. A not too recent "Regional Auction" catalog listed a lot containing two single shots. One was a piece of junk---and was accurately described as such. The other was described with whatever terminology they use to describe a VERY nice, original item. I researched the item as best I could. It's worthy of note right about now that the item was a 1st Model, 8", 38. (!!!!) It (the serial number) was listed in Neal&Jinks. The RIA personnel with whom I spoke (three different people on three different occasions) all confirmed their description (ALL original, matching numbers, etc., ad nauseam). I got in my little car and drove to RIA----a mere 700+ miles----------one way. I arrived at the appointed time for my "viewing" appointment. I was warmly greeted, ushered into the inner sanctum, and shown to a table----where both guns were already laid out------ready for inspection. I asked if I may remove the grips. "Certainly----just make yourself right at home!" Then they left. I didn't even have to sit down to see BOTH guns were refinished---and poorly at that. The properly numbered 38 didn't have its serial number on the front strap----it was on the butt. Both the butt and the improper grips had been "thinned" in the process of removing whatever the original serial number may have been. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry! My first thought was about the intellect or lack thereof of the person who had gone to the trouble of applying a bogus serial number---------- in the wrong place. The barrel was an accessory item from the parts department---no serial number. The rear sight (latch) was from the parts department----no serial number.

I informed my host I was ready to leave. He very cordially asked if "that" was what I was looking for. I said no, and went on to inform him the gun was not a 1st Model SS. His response: "Oh well, there always be another auction." Yes indeed!!

Caveat Emptor!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

So how do you tell if mismatched numbers are "factory mismatched"? I don't have the first clue! I imagine there are (very) rare instances where the data to which Jinks has access would tell him----and us.

My approach is to follow the time honored risk management strategy of avoidance----------I don't buy mismatched guns----at any price! I don't buy guns that won't letter-----at any price!

A good friend bought a very nice "Mexican Model" at the Dallas SWCA meeting (at least I think it was Dallas). He knew the numbers were mismatched, but hoped for the best. He laid the better part of $4,000 down on the table and put the gun in his shoulder bag. He called upon receipt of his factory letter---------the frame of the "Mexican Model" started life as a 1st Model SS. It was pretty much all downhill after that.

C'est la vie!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[H. M. Pope]

How bout that.
I've heard that the person that runs or owns RIA is an upstanding S&W CA member and a S&W collector, or was at one time, you would think that who ever was doin the write up or handling of those guns would have at least checked with him, or maybe he was doin some up grading of his own collection

Those no serial number accessory barrels and the no number latch's seemed to be easy to come by in the 50's and 60's especially in the east, seems I had more than my share of them.

It's a shame that you drove 1400 miles to just look at junk, and like I've said, I heard that the guy that runs RIA is / was a S&W collector. If so he should have known better and be ashamed of himself.

I would have been so up set about those so called "professionals" doin something like that I would have at least ask them for gas money
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[H. M. Pope]

So how do you tell if mismatched numbers are "factory mismatched"? I don't have the first clue! I imagine there are (very) rare instances where the data to which Jinks has access would tell him----and us.

My approach is to follow the time honored risk management strategy of avoidance----------I don't buy mismatched guns----at any price! I don't buy guns that won't letter-----at any price!

A good friend bought a very nice "Mexican Model" at the Dallas SWCA meeting (at least I think it was Dallas). He knew the numbers were mismatched, but hoped for the best. He laid the better part of $4,000 down on the table and put the gun in his shoulder bag. He called upon receipt of his factory letter---------the frame of the "Mexican Model" started life as a 1st Model SS. It was pretty much all downhill after that.

C'est la vie!

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph,
I no longer put that much faith in factory letters, I've seen to many letters that were obviously wrong, and a lot of guns that were obviously right but will not letter, of course it does help if the letter coincides with the gun, but I've seen to many nice original guns that for some reason Mr. Jinks wont letter, like you if the numbers don't match I don't need the gun as I can make up all the "shooters" I want at a lot less cost than a collectors item. I will buy nice matching guns without a letter however and don't worry to much if it will letter or not.

The guys doin the recording back in the day did a very fine job, but they did make mistakes at times. No disrespect but the same goes for Mr. Jinks, he does a fine job, most times, and some may think he's an S&W God, but that's not so, he can and does make mistakes and there's a lot of proof of that in reading some of his letters then looking at the gun.
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[rct269]

In my experience (personal and hearsay), there are two reasons why a gun won't letter. The first is because the records to which Jinks has access are incomplete, or wrong-----for whatever reason. When that happens, there's not a whole lot he can do about it. The other reason is while a particular gun may have been made "AT" S&W, it was not made "BY" S&W----------as in a Lunch Box Special. The Lunch Box Specials are a matter of speculation on my part, because I wasn't there at the time; and I didn't see "them" do it-------but I'm very comfortable with my speculation.

As to whether Jinks is an S&W God or not, he isn't. The S&W Gods are long gone and turned to dust. I would imagine most folks believe he has forgotten more about S&W than anybody else knows. As such, he is an asset of immeasureable proportions.

You'd think that would be enough for him, but it isn't. He could very easily be resting his bones and playing wherever he might choose to engage in such activities, but he isn't. He's still there-----sifting through the dust.

This seems like a good place to stop------so I will-----in spite of the fact that it seems a shame he spends so much time looking up shipping dates instead of putting what he knows down in black ink on white paper------so the rest of us could come to know what he knows.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[H. M. Pope]

Ralph, Like I said, no disrespect to Mr. Jinks, and I agree, he has probably forgotten more about S&W's than everyone on this forum, but people do make mistakes and I've seen a lot of them, and not just from him.

His work load is most likely heaver that Colt and some others because of the lower cost of letters, therefore more letters equates to whatever. There are more reasons than just two that a gun wont letter but that's not important. The important thing is you buy what your comfortable with, if all your guns must match and letter, well that's what you got to buy.

For me finding the right gun is primary, having it letter is secondary. But all my guns must have matching numbers, and look right, after looking at S&W's for many years you will get a feel of what looks right, just like you spotted those re-finished Single Shots before you even sat down at the table, if they will letter ok, if not, that's ok with me. I guess some would say, buy the gun not the letter.

Have you ever seen fake letters, I have, an old timer now gone to the big range up above told me to never forget that paper is much easer to fake than guns, and then showed me a hand full of fake letters that I would have sworn were real, so be careful putting a lot of faith in paper. A letter that has mistakes in it is different, it can always be corrected, as long as you still have someone around to do the correcting.
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[SDH]

Thanks gentlemen, I enjoyed reading the opinions and information presented here.
Best,
Steve

 

[Modelof1891]

This is one like we have been speaking of earlier. The serial number of a 1st model ( 15248 ) with the frame type of a 2nd Model Single Shot. All of the real 2nd models, in the correct serial number range, have a single pin in the frame above the trigger. The first models have two pins.

This number is listed as a .32 cal. in the Neal & Jinks Book but it is in .22 RF. This .22 barrel is not numbered to the frame. Wonder where the .32 barrel is today?

 

[H. M. Pope]

Hi 1891,
The pins are a good way to tell if a SS is a first or second model frame, without even knowing the serial number. I'm sure you know what the second pin was for and of course that part is not needed on a SS.

If that is your gun check real close for a 22 liner, maybe you have already checked but some of them are fitted so close there hard to see. I can only think of four possible ways it could have a 22 barrel, it was it shipped as a two barrel set and the 32 barrel went missing, it could have been re-lined to 22, a mistake was made in the factory records, or the listing in the book is wrong. I know most of us don't want to think that the factory or the book could be wrong so check for a liner first, then check if it was shipped with two barrels.
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[Modelof1891]

H.M. Pope,
I will pull the SS 1891's out this weekend and compare all the differences. I will look for a .22 liner in the barrel of that "no recoil shield" 1st model. That sounds like what it will be, although I think I have checked it for that in the past.

I do have a group of extra barrels, some numbered and some not. I was thinking of starting a new thread so people can list there extra barrels or mis-matched sets, in the chance of finding the frames they originated from. So far I have purchased one extra barrel with the number of a frame of mine that was a mis-matched single shot up to that point. I also have purchased two different mis-matched guns that had each others barrels on them. Several latches that are numbered to guns other than what they are on.

Coming soon on this forum!! "List your extra SS barrels" or what do yall think the title should be?

Terry Wagner

 

[H. M. Pope]

Sounds like a good title, or maybe "List your extra SS barrels and your mismatched SS pistols".
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[rct269]

Here are my orphaned single shot barrels: #21913, 6", .22 caliber, blue finish, both barrel and sight/latch are numbered. This number is not listed in Neal & Jinks--as is the case with all of the higher numbered 1st Model .22's. #14258, 6", .32 caliber, blue finish, both barrel and sight/latch are numbered. This number is listed in Neal & Jinks. NSN, 6", .38 caliber, blue finish, neither barrel nor sight/latch are numbered-----an accessory item.

Perhaps of interest is the fact the .38 barrel has been milled flat and relieved on the bottom-----so as to fit a third model frame (as well as 1st/2nd Model frames). Not only has it been milled flat and relieved, but it is milled to the exact, same configuation as the bottom of any/all 3rd Models----rather odd, considering simply milling it flat and relieving it will accomodate its use on a 3rd Model. Somewhere along the line I was told the factory milled and relieved all accessory barrels remaining in stock at a point in time such that they would fit all the top-break single shot models. (Makes sense to me!) Jinks says it never happened. I, of course, wasn't there; so I don't know one way or the other---but it still makes sense to me!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[H. M. Pope]

Ralph,
I also have a Third Model SS in 32 S&W Long that has the Third Model flat cut and has been relieved on the bottom exactly like any other third model.
But this is a complete matching gun. I have had many third models and have looked very close at them and this one, it looks like it was cut on the same machine, not just a close match but an exact match, and all the numbers match except for the Roper grips. Remember what I said about matching numbers and that some wont letter, well most everyone knows that all third models are 22 only, right, well not this one.

Like you said, Jinks may have said it never happened. and of course you and I were not there, but, neither was Jinks, everyone that has seen it says the same thing, it's a factory gun, so even if it wont letter, it is a matching SS and I don't mind owning it. I never heard of another center fire third model gun or barrel till now, wonder how many more are out there.
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[rct269]

I'm assuming the barrel on your 3rd Model .32 carries the two line "Model of '91" barrel address------------true or false?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[H. M. Pope]

Ralph,
True, it has the two line address and is marked Model of "91" on the rib, it is a first / second type 32 S&W 10" barrel but cut the same as a third model to fit the third model SS frame and chambered for the 32 S&W Long, not the 32 S&W. Is your "third model" 38 SS barrel chambered for 38 S&W or ?.
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[rct269]

It appears to be chambered for the .38 S&W---which is to say that round chambers and a .38 Special does not. I have been told of 2nd Model fitted with a .38 barrel chambered for .38 Special--------and which is used as a shooter. I had supposed the .38 S&W chamber had simply been lengthened and never thought anymore about it. Your question caused me to dig deeper. Having now done so, it would appear that sort of conversion is not a good idea---at all!

Okay, so much for that! You never came right out and said your 3rd Model .32 wouldn't letter. That's certainly the impression I got, but I am, as you know, a nit-picker. Is it that it wouldn't letter at all-----period, paragraph, end of report?!! Or is it that it shows as "open" on the books? And if it doesn't letter at all, then I'm going to assume the serial number is outside the 3rd Model series----------true or false?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[H. M. Pope]

Ralph,
I also don't think a 38 Spl. would be a good Idea, I'm sure that barrel would come apart real fast if some uninformed person put a 38 + P in it and touched it off. As to my 32 S&W Long, I think the barrel is strong enough for normal target loads, I believe all that was done was the chamber was lengthened a bit so the long shell would fit.

As to it lettering, I personally never tried as I always seem to have something better to do with $ 50.00, years ago the shooter I bought it from told me he got it from Mr. Gagne of Mass, it was one of the guns he used in shooting events, and that he tried to get a letter on it but for what ever reason Mr. Jinks would not letter it ?. Like I've said, I buy the gun as long as it matches and looks right, it matches, looks right, and shoots great.

I'm happy with it letter or no letter, later on I found some of Mr. Gagne's shooting records from 1948 / 49 and guess what was listed as the gun he was shooting, an S&W SS in 32 S&W, was this the one ?. Chances are very good that it may have been, then again maybe it wasn't. Any way he came in second in the slow fire match using a S&W SS in 32 S&W. That's a good enough reason for me to keep it.

If a letter could be gotten it may only tell me that it was shipped to Franks Hardware Store and that means nothing to me, then again maybe , just maybe, it will show that it was shipped to a Mr. Gagne of Mass. being that It's not that important to me it would just be $ 50.00 wasted, $ 50.00 worth of good 22 Match ammo would be more useful to me.
Regards
H. M. Pope

 

[SDH]

I'd for one, would love to see it Harry! I think I posted some pics for you on another forum(?) I'd sure do it again!
[email protected]
For that matter, all this thread is missing is pix! Everyone?!?!

 

[rct269]

Okay, let me suggest a somewhat sneaky, backdoor approach to "lettering" this gun----------or any other whose heritage is, shall we say-------strange. Ask Mr. Roy when it shipped. If Mr. Roy can answer that question, the gun will letter----or in this case, at least the frame will letter. If he can't answer it, it's because he (S&W) never heard of it (or the records are not available for whatever reason). If it's a legit gun, and they don't know what happened to it; it will show as "open"--------and I'm pretty sure he'll tell you that much in response to a shipping date request.

In the for what it's worth department, I am particularly interested in this gun-----and being particularly nosey about it because of another 3rd Model I've encountered-----twice. It's an 8"-----a rather exquisite 8". It is fairly common knowledge among some that I would kill for an 8" 3rd Model-----and a 6" 2nd Model. And if I wouldn't kill, I would happily part with a serious sum of money!! This gun has been sold twice in the last several years by Amoskeage. Both times it has fetched some fairly significant money. Both times it has been as bogus as a three dollar bill!! That damning statement is my opinion based on the following facts: The serial number is 02X,XXX---------for a 3rd Model SS?------Yeh, right!! (And I'm not being coy about the serial number----I just don't remember it and I haven't taken the time to find/review my notes.) The gun will not letter. The gun is not on the "club gun" list. The barrel is marked 22 Long Rifle. The gun is chambered for 22WRF-------- which could've happened anytime along the way. It hardly seems worth mentioning, but I didn't bid on this item either time. I did tell Amoskeage about its, shall we say, questionable heritage----both times. They deemed it to be of no moment-----both times. So be it!

And finally, let me tell you about another gun which has lettered----whose numbers match------and is as bogus as a three dollar bill. It too is a rather exquisite example----this time of a New Model #3 Target. I bought it. I was cautioned at the time to the effect "That gun is not right----you should look into it." I did. After I had talked myself into believing it was okay. I sent it off to Chicoine. He did his thing--------an absolutely first class report-----and said it's not right. What does he know------right?! I sent it off to Jinks. He did his thing------and said it's not right. Strangely enough, the reasons he stated were exactly the same as Dave's. Hmmmmmm? The end of this tale is the folks I bought it from made everything alright---------and I still have the gun--------------and it's still exquisite------but it ain't right! And what ain't right about it is the barrel-----and the cylinder----both of which, you will recall, are numbered to the frame-----and neither of which were around when the gun left Springfield. (!!!)

Ralph Tremaine