Location of FN-Browning in Belgium

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Just got this in as a PM from a Belgian acquaintance on another board.

Thought it'd interest Browning fanciers. Best explanation of the Liege/Herstal matter I've read:

Hi,
Liege is the capital of the province of Liege and lies on both banks of the river Meuse. Several small villages lie around like Loncin (remember the fort which exploded in August 1914 and in which 250 soldiers were killed). One of these small villages is Herstal with the famous weapon factory.
 
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Interesting, very obscure fact. Will we need to know this for a quiz later?


Some gun enthusiasts simply have more intellectual curiosity than others. If this knowledge doesn't appeal to you, you're free to ignore it. Someone else may be interested.

I've wondered for years, so I asked a Belgian. I've never met a Browning dealer who knew.
 
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FN was founded by Ludwig Loewe of DWM who bought out Mauser when Belgium awarded Mauser the contract for their military rifles and wanted them made under license in Belgium. ludwig's brother was a director at Vickers and that is the Luger connection.

He was a German jew and politics eventually worked against him, even though he was a great patriot and outstanding businessman.
 
I've wondered for years, so I asked a Belgian. I've never met a Browning dealer who knew.

Perhaps because Browning Dealers do not deal with FN Belgium, but with the US Browning Centers:


Parts or Product Service
3005 Arnold-Tenbrook Road
Arnold, Missouri 63010-4728
800-322-4626

Catalog, Owners
Manual or any
other printed material
One Browning Place
Morgan, UT 84050
800-333-3504





Customer Service
One Browning Place
Morgan, UT 84050
800-333-3288
801-876-2711

The following is from the FN Herstal public information:
Herstal Group
FN Herstal is part of the Herstal Group that celebrated 125 years of excellence in 2014.

Under the brands FN Herstal, Browning and Winchester Firearms*, the Herstal Group designs, manufactures and distributes a full range of firearms and associated products for defense, law enforcement, hunting, and shooting.

8e2d1721b3.gif
Herstal Group's Headquarters in Herstal, Belgium
The Herstal Group has its headquarters in Herstal, a suburb of Liege, Belgium, and offices in several other European countries, North America and Asia.

The Herstal Group has two internationally renowned subsidiaries:
  • FN Herstal, whose undisputed expertise lies in Defense and Law Enforcement business, and
  • Browning, who commercializes the Browning and Winchester trademarks and is a world leader in hunting, shooting and outdoor.
Each subsidiary has its own research, development and manufacturing facilities, and its own selling network.
Since 1997, Herstal Group has been 100% owned by the Walloon Region of Belgium. With manufacturing locations in Belgium, US, UK, Portugal, Japan and Finland, the global Herstal Group provides employment to a workforce of about 2,400 people.
 
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The whole Browning/FN relationship is fairly complex, and you really need to read one of John Moses Browning's biographies to fully understand how they relate to each other. Just like Browning designs and the Browning brand in the US. Browning's most famous design, the 1911, was never referred to as a Browning or manufactured by a Company bearing his name, and it will always be primarily seen as a Colt product. In Europe the Browning HP is referred to as the FN Hi Power, since he designed it for FN and it was an original Belgian product, just like the FN 1910. In fact, the labelling as "Browning HP" in the US when the gun was introduced here was largely a marketing thing since here everyone knew the Browning name, unlike Europe; besides, he'd been dead for 10 years when the gun came out.

So when you discuss this topic, be sure to keep John M. Browning himself, the modern US company named Browning, the historic Fabrique Nationale and the modern Herstal Group, in their proper perspective. They're all related, but not necessarily straightforward.
 
... since here everyone knew the Browning name, unlike Europe; ...

By empirical knowledge I have to argue against this statement. I grew up in Germany and the term Browning is synonomous with a semi auto pistol there, like a P.08 is known here as a Luger.
 
By empirical knowledge I have to argue against this statement. I grew up in Germany and the term Browning is synonomous with a semi auto pistol there, like a P.08 is known here as a Luger.

Good point. I've seen German gun magazines like, DWJ and they cover most guns like ours do here. Many ads for former military guns, too. I haven't seen one in maybe 20 years, but hope they're still published.
 
Somewhere out there on the internet (if anyone wants to search for it) is a site containing a booklet put out by FN sometime in past years which provides a complete history of FN (at least the earlier period), with a lot of photos taken inside the plant. I have actually seen it, but can't provide a location. Over 30 years ago, I was working in Dubai (UAE) for awhile. I remember that FN had a complete floor of office space in the Dubai World Trade Center building. They must have done a lot of business in the Middle East at that time to warrant that much space. I was never in the FN offices there, but I was in that building frequently.
 
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Not to drift the thread too much but this description of the Browning FN relationship is not exactly right.

Absalom said:
The whole Browning/FN relationship is fairly complex, and you really need to read one of John Moses Browning's biographies to fully understand how they relate to each other. Just like Browning designs and the Browning brand in the US. Browning's most famous design, the 1911, was never referred to as a Browning or manufactured by a Company bearing his name, and it will always be primarily seen as a Colt product.

FN is a manufacturer and importer of firearms. Browning Arms is an importer, designer and licensee of firearms design founded by JMB. JMB would design guns and then license them to people like Colt and FN for manufacturing. They were then paid a royalty for every gun sold. They were never a manufacturer.

The 1911 is a Colt because it was Colt who contracted with JMB to design a gun for the Army pistol trials started in 1907 and completed in 1911 JMB and Browning never intended to produce the pistol. JMB was hired to meet the design spec and requirements of the 1907 pistol trials. The gun was not supposed to bear his name because it was not part of the contract spec.

Colt and FN had a special relationship with JMB. R. Blake Stevens explains it nicely in the first chapter of his book The Browning High Power Automatice" In july of 1896 the Browning Bros granted exclusive rights to Colt to manufacture use and sell within the US, Great Britain, Ireland all automatic pistols and their improvements designed by JMB.

In July of 1897 the same rights were granted to FN To se ll in Austria-Hungry, Spain, Belgium, France, Germany and everywhere else not covered by the Colt agreement.

This was done because Colt and FN saw each JMB pistol as a leap forward in design and function. Each design was considered a better mouse trap and Colt and FN knew it was better to divide the JMB world between each other then fight over it. A contract to this effect was signed in July of 1912. The exact details of the contract can be found in the Stevens book but I will highlight a few details.

Colts are to mark their Pistols as "Colt Automatic Pistols" and FN as "Browning Automatic Pistols."

Colt agrees to maintain in force American and British Patents, and FN maintains all European contracts.

The contract was for 5 years with 5 year extensions.

One can argue that the 1911 is not JMBs most famous design but it is certainly his most popular design in the US. We tend to be a little US centric and consider what we think of as the most famous to be the case internationally. I believe is his most famous pistol design but you have to remember the Auto-5 Browning Shotgun and the .50 caliber Ma Duce machine gun when you talk about his most sucessful "designs." IMHO

Absalom said:
In Europe the Browning HP is referred to as the FN Hi Power, since he designed it for FN and it was an original Belgian product, just like the FN 1910. In fact, the labelling as "Browning HP" in the US when the gun was introduced here was largely a marketing thing since here everyone knew the Browning name, unlike Europe; besides, he'd been dead for 10 years when the gun came out.

The FN Hi Power was not designed by JMB. It was designed by Saive. JMB's last pistol design was IMHO the Grand Rendement not the gun which was named the FN Browning High Power Automatic Pistol AKA P35, Browning Hi Power, Grande Puissance etc...

The pistol we know as the BHP was created by Saive after JMBs death in 1926. Saive at the direction of FN took up the abandoned pistol project after the French started to drag their feet. He started with a clean slate using the magazine he designed for the Grand Rendement and built a new pistol using his own ideas and incorporating many of JMBs design concepts IMHO. That however is a topic which deserves its own thread and discussion.

Either way when the pistol, we know as the BHP, was complete it was not imported into the US by Browning until after the war. Once Browning decided to import them as a sporting pistol they did so with a Browning rollmark instead of a FN rollmark. At the time they were located in St. Louis they later moved to Utah. They also had an import office in Canada located in Montreal. You can see it on the pistol below.

bhp-internal-2.gif


The Browning name was used because it was part of the Colt/FN contract and because it was as famous in Europe as it was in the US. FN also fully understood the marketing power of the Browning name. For many all over the world Browning="automatic pistol". FN also owed a great debt to JMB. He helped them save the company after WWI with the Browning 1900 and other pistols. They referred to him as “Le Maître” – “The Master”. The Browning name was always on the High Powerr even if they did not show it on the rollmark.

Absalom said:
So when you discuss this topic, be sure to keep John M. Browning himself, the modern US company named Browning, the historic Fabrique Nationale and the modern Herstal Group, in their proper perspective. They're all related, but not necessarily straightforward.

These days FN Herstal owns Browning and uses the name to license products and import some firearms. IIRC they bought them some time in the 80s. I agree the FN Browning relationship was a somewhat complicated one but in the end not too complicated. ;)
 
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The very first blowback pistol was designed by Browning and made by FN, the Model 1899-1900. The legend on the slide is "Fabrique-National-Herstal-Belgique (Browning's Patent)".

Browning also had a relationship with Remington.
 
Another interesting fact is Mr. Browning died at his bench there working on a pistol design. I learned that visiting his museum at the train station in Utah.

He was not working on a pistol design but the Browning Superposed Shotgun design in his office at Liege at the time of his death. It is often misstated that he was working on a pistol. It is one of the many oft repeated errors that these days is often mistaken for the truth. ;)
 
The very first blowback pistol was designed by Browning and made by FN, the Model 1899-1900. The legend on the slide is "Fabrique-National-Herstal-Belgique (Browning's Patent)".

Browning also had a relationship with Remington.

Yes! This is why "automatic pistol" = Browning in the minds of many people all over the world.

He has many "relationships" because he was a freelance designer not an employee of the companies he designed guns for. His pistol "relationship" was an unique one IMHO.

Another interesting fact which furthers this concept and shows the relationship between FN and Browning is that the Baby Browning which was designed by Saive after JMBs death still bears his name.

browning_baby_Adams_2910.jpg
 
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FN's present is centered in . . . Columbia, SC.

U.S. military contracts for small arms required FN to make them in the U.S. So they built a factory in Columbia. And it has grown and grown.

The Auto-5 story . . . Browning took it to Winchester, they wanted to buy the rights and pay no royalties. He took it to Remington. As he waited outside the office of the president of Remington, the president died (!). So he took it to Belgium.
 
FN's present is centered in . . . Columbia, SC.

U.S. military contracts for small arms required FN to make them in the U.S. So they built a factory in Columbia. And it has grown and grown.

The Auto-5 story . . . Browning took it to Winchester, they wanted to buy the rights and pay no royalties. He took it to Remington. As he waited outside the office of the president of Remington, the president died (!). So he took it to Belgium.

Yeah, I've read that. Pretty remarkable.

But Remington still made it here as the Model 11. Winchester really dropped the ball when they passed on that deal.
 
By empirical knowledge I have to argue against this statement. I grew up in Germany and the term Browning is synonomous with a semi auto pistol there, like a P.08 is known here as a Luger.

Sorry, not so much. I grew up in Germany, and the FN High Power was one of the first handguns I became familiar with. Looking at my German gun literature, not a "Browning Hi Power" to be found. Never heard the name Browning in connection with the gun, except for the history/design of course. In fact, when I walked into Larry's Sporting Goods here in Oregon back in the 80s to buy my first of several HP's here and asked the counter guy that I was interested "in the FN", he looked at me like "What?". I had to point at the gun in the display case. Learning experience for me.
 

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Not to drift the thread too much but this description of the Browning FN relationship is not exactly right.
.........

An excellent description of the details, although there's really nothing in there that contradicts my statement; it's just a LOT more elaborate ;). Inhowfar Saive produced an original design or how much he built upon JMB's design has been a matter of contention (and opinion) ever since. JMB got the last laugh since the HP bore the roll mark "BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE" since the pre-war beginnings and right through Nazi production.
 

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