London case with disc in lid

[mrcvs]

Several others appeared in a recent thread that addressed cased Smith & Wesson revolvers.

In Post #5 of the following thread, BMur refers to this as a London case:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/700415-model-91-first-model-single-shot-pistol.html

Any ideas as to the composition of the disc? My guess is it’s bronze.

And can anyone produce a disc that is engraved with initials, or anything else, for that matter? I’ve never seen one that is engraved. But what other purpose would this disc serve, unless purely decorative?

Being located in the lid, it does lend itself to being engraved. On the other hand, being a disc, it doesn’t lend itself well to being engraved as far as composition/layout, as would a more rectangular inset, unless one engraved a larger centrally located initial flanked by smaller ones on either side.

Also, the surface of the disc is atypical of an inset as far as finish, independent of the composition and shape of the disc. Most insets were highly polished and independent of any tooling marks. Every one of these discs shows clear evidence of having been turned on a lathe. Being this disc is so atypical of anything else from the era, 1840 to 1905, it was a red herring and led me to the initial conclusion that the case containing my British proofed pistol from 1905 was neither British nor period.

Photographs attached to this thread illustrate what I am writing more.

Other red herrings that initially led me to believe this case was not British and dating from 1840 to 1905 are the following:

1. Joinery. Simple 45 degree angles. I would have expected it to be dovetailed.

2. The latches. Being mitered out to fit the latch is atypical of any other latch I have seen before. Others are not inset into the case, but are above the surface of the case. The lack of a highly or even reasonably finished (meaning sanded and smoothed) surface in the mitered area led me to initially conclude this work was likely subsequent to the time of manufacture of this case.

 

[lestert357]

I’m not sure if this helps with any of your questions, but here are a few pictures of the London case with Colt London Agency label that accompanies my 1875 vintage Colt SAA .45 Boxer…….

 

[Wiregrassguy]

My case also has a circular base or inset in the lid similar those pictured by Ian and Terry. My thoughts are it may be a base for a monogrammed coin or some other decoration. However, I have never seen such an arrangement.

 

[ol777gunnerz]

It certainly looks like a base for some type of disc for a monogram or something similar

 

[BMur]

Disc

These are LONDON cases that are very often labeled by British gun makers and Distributors in London. The Disc was both a decorative centerpiece for the lid and could be used for an inscription if so desired to personalize the case.I have seen a few personalized with cap and ball revolvers in the case. Often attributed to military officers. That may be the origin and purpose.
American made cases often had a centerpiece on the lid for the same exact purpose and they are often found unmarked.

Distributors in London would also often engrave the gun itself with the Distributors name and address. I’ve seen them on Colt Newlines, Colt SAA, Colt Lightnings, Colt New Police(Cop & Thugs) and also Smith & Wesson No.2 Army, early 1 1/2, etc etc.
The most common by far is the various Webley/Tranter Bulldogs that very often are engraved by the Distributor with their name and address in London. Which I personally think is wonderful.

Also, I want to point out that the oilers and accoutrements are telltale of early London manufacture as well. They are often maker marked along with SHEFFIELD ENGLAND or simply Made in England. Some of the later oilers were glass like Ian’s. Those are pretty rare. Most are like the attached photo.
The cases are extremely well made and have been undervalued until very recently.

There are known reproduction cases but the quality is sub par that I’ve seen and they simply look like they were made recently with less quality parts. The new accoutrements are also modern and look new. Screws are very shiny,etc. often labeled with new paper.

A simple in hand inspection of the case will reveal its age.

Murph

 

[BMur]

History of cases

By the time cartridge guns came out the wood case was already produced for over 130 years. I believe the origin was for both Dueling sets and military sea going flintlocks.
Commercial sets became more popular in the 1850’s and post Civil War Era but the London cases and designs remained basically the same so the center piece(disc)remained from an earlier vintage. See photo of an earlier circa 1800 London sea going set. Basically the same.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Different varieties

Examples of 4 different varieties of very early British cases.
British Mahogany
Oak
Birdseye Maple
And fancy D Ring lid with re-enforced corners
Military presentation lid

I have seen the circular disc with initials engraved on several London cases. Most that I recall were on smaller cases for Bulldogs and pepperbox type guns.

Murph

 

[mrcvs]

Can anyone provide an example of these London cases with a period engraved insert in the disc? It seems logical that the disc would contain an engraved insert—although rather odd to be a perfect circle. However, equally odd is that 100% of these boxes posted to the forum are the blank disc absent any engraved insert, which seems statistically unlikely.

 

[CptCurl]

Here's a cased John Pratt percussion double with both rifle and shot barrels that I used to own:

Note the engraving:

The contents, for them what likes 'em:

Oh yeah, they did engrave them.

Curly

 

[mrcvs]

Here's a cased John Pratt percussion double with both rifle and shot barrels that I used to own:

Note the engraving:

The contents, for them what likes 'em:

Oh yeah, they did engrave them.

Curly

Okay, your case demonstrates what engraving within a disc can look like. I had envisioned three initials, the middle one flanked by two smaller ones, as it lends itself best to engraving within a circle. Your post dispels that notion.

Your disc, however, is not identical to all the rest of the unadorned discs posted within other London cases. Yours is fancier. Of course, there’s the additional ring surrounding it, but also yours has a serrated edge. None of the others I’ve seen have that. Also, the composition of the disc is not identical to the others. Yours has a brassier appearance. Lastly, yours is more highly polished. All the others show evidence of tooling from a lathe.

And so your post does demonstrate how engraving can be applied to a disc and is very similar to the discs of the other more typical, more pedestrian, London cases. Thank you for posting it.

However, can anyone produce an example of an engraved disc identical to all the others in this post, except the one posted by Curly? Without the additional ring and without the serrated edge? Bonus points if the tool marks from the lathe are still evident, although it’s possible they were removed at the time of engraving.

 

[CptCurl]

The "outer ring" is actually a little hinged handle. What it's good for, I'm not sure. The rear half hinges up.

Murph snuck one in on you in post #7 above:

They are not uncommon.


In the end, there just wasn't a rule in the rule book as to what should be done with the medallion. The buyer or owner decided.

You may have seen my pair of Gastinne Renette target pistols I recently displayed: Pair of Gastinne Renette Breechloading Dueling or Target Pistols

In the photos I did not show the outside of the case. Here it is:

Same as the monogram on the trigger guards:

On the other hand, the shield on the top of the case that houses my pair of Belgian percussion pistols (link: Pair of Belgian Percussion Dueling or Target Pistols) remains vacant.

The point I'm making is that if you dealt with a British or Continental maker or supplier, you could have whatever you would want. If you wanted a medallion of 24 ct. gold engraved with an image of your ex-wife, they would do it. Money was the lube. No rule applied.

Curly

 

[BMur]

Collection

Curly,
Wonderful collection. Thank You for posting the excellent photo’s.
I’ve never actually seen where the lid centerpiece has the same engraved marking as found on the gun. Like you said, anything goes when the customer is involved.
It’s actually pretty difficult to find the case lid centerpiece engraved (inscribed) no matter what the design or where the case was manufactured. Both American and European cases seem to follow the same pattern. The vast majority are unmarked that I remember. Mainly presentation pieces are personalized in some way. I think it adds value and historical significance to the piece.

Murph