Looking for info on handgun

Jaycmpng

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Hopefully this is the correct forum for this gun.
Purchased this 38 S&W Special from a friend a couple years ago.
Number behind the yoke is 2176. Does not say Mod number, just has this number.
It is a hand ejector.
Number on butt is C 7120.
Barrel is stamped 38 S&W Special CTG.
4" Barrel.
Sights are Hand Ejector Fixed.
There is a Strain Screw.
Has 5 screws.
Anything you could tell me about this gun would be appreciated.
Thank in advance.
 

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Your revolver is from the era where all S&Ws were "Named Models", before numeric model numbers were assigned in addition to the model name. The Model name is a .38 Special Military and Police, aka M&P. In 1957 the model number of Model 10 would be added. The number does not replace the model name! Your SN, C7120, dates to 1948 as a manufacture date. It could have shipped about the same time, or it could have languished in the warehouse for several months to a few years. The letter is part of the serial number.

The other number you mention, 2176, is referred to as the "assembly number". This is stamped on the yoke, on the frame, and inside the sideplate. This number is to assure the major, hand-fit components of the "assembly" can be properly matched in the event they become separated during manufacture or bluing. The yoke and sideplate are the most labor/time (cost) consuming fitted parts of the revolver.

When you describe features it is not necessary to add "hand ejector", all current ( since the Model 1896) S&W revolvers are hand ejectors! Just say fixed or adjustable sights as applies, or that it has a strain screw.:D In this case just the serial number and photos are sufficient for your question.
 
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Number on butt is C 7120.
Barrel is stamped 38 S&W Special CTG.
4" Barrel.

Nice piece. Alk8944 is correct; it is a 1948 revolver. M&P serial number C7827 shipped in June, 1948. At that time, the M&Ps were going out the door pretty rapidly, so I suspect yours shipped during the same period, within a month or so.

The stocks are period correct. You might look to see if the serial number, minus the C, is stamped on the inside of the right hand panel. If so, that pair of stocks shipped with that gun.

At that serial number, I would also be curious to find out whether there are patent dates on the top of the barrel. It comes from the period during which those disappeared, but it is on the late side. I'd not be surprised if they are missing.
 
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Just pulled it out to check stock. Stock appears to be original with serial number. There is no patent number stamped on the top of barrel.
Any guess as to actual value of this piece. Don't really want to say, but I think I practically stole the gun from him.
 
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Hi all
I take advantage of the thread to ask you this question. Are there any M&Ps built (or assembled) before the war, left unsold and shipped after 1945? Could my M&P serial 653xxx have been sold after the war? Does the writing on the hammer appear in guns sold after the war?
Thanks
Giorgio
 

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I don't know the answer to those questions, but I'm inclined to believe it'd be no---simply because the M&P line was S&W's most numerous model---in the millions, and went out the door almost as fast as they could make them, and I'm not aware of any post war guns with the patent date on the hammer. (That said, it's a good bet I wouldn't have paid any attention to a patent date in the first place.) As to your gun with the 653XXX number hanging around until post war, my latest pre-war M&P was #659118, and it shipped in 1936. (Yeah, I know they neither made nor shipped in serial order, but I'll bet BIG money they weren't that far off!!!---knowing full well somebody out there has an example of just that---and I'd lose the bet!)

The target models being a possible exception---seems like the target versions of any given model where both fixed and adjustable sight versions were made were the distinct minority---lagging far behind their fixed sight brethren in numbers.

Ralph Tremaine
 
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Giorgio Italy

An excellent question. Actually, the answer is basically yes. We know of a group of revolvers with prewar serial numbers that were not shipped until the summer of 1946. The lowest number that I have recorded is 609008, and the highest is 695105. None of them that we know of is in the 653000 range.

However, all of those had 2" barrels and a round butt. Yours with the 4" barrel, if it shipped post-war, would be the first non-snubby identified as a postwar shipment. What makes you think it shipped after 1945? Have you lettered it?
 
Your SN, C7120, dates to 1948 as a manufacture date.

Curious as to how you determined this? I have always been under the impression that all of the dates that we refer to, hear about, read about or get in letters are shipping dates. S&W did not keep records of manufacture dates other than perhaps the floor foreman's daily log books that were used to calculate a workman's pay based on piece work.

That issue is also in discussion as in another thread DOC stated that these daily log books do not contain serial numbers. I have somewhere copies of pages from one such logbook supplied to me by Ed Cornett however I have not been able to locate them in my expansive collection of S&W papers. My recollection was that serial numbers were listed but lately my memory is subject to interpretation.
 
Jack
no letter of course! Collector's manias! I'd like to think it's a completely pre-war gun. Made and shipped! So if it had been sent after '45 I would have disturbed sleep. Ha ha. Here you have a lot of them but in Italy it is not very easy to find an S&W from before the 60s. Let alone before the war!
G
 
Curious as to how you determined this? I have always been under the impression that all of the dates that we refer to, hear about, read about or get in letters are shipping dates.

James
The point of your post is well taken. However, in this situation it is a near certainty that the OP's revolver was assembled in 1948. Here's why:
1. The first C prefix revolver wasn't assembled until March, 1948. So, his couldn't have been assembled in 1947 or earlier.
2. We know that C numbered revolvers with serial numbers higher than his were shipping by mid-year 1948.

Hence the OP's revolver was almost certainly produced in 1948.
 
Curious as to how you determined this? I have always been under the impression that all of the dates that we refer to, hear about, read about or get in letters are shipping dates. S&W did not keep records of manufacture dates other than perhaps the floor foreman's daily log books that were used to calculate a workman's pay based on piece work.

That issue is also in discussion as in another thread DOC stated that these daily log books do not contain serial numbers. I have somewhere copies of pages from one such logbook supplied to me by Ed Cornett however I have not been able to locate them in my expansive collection of S&W papers. My recollection was that serial numbers were listed but lately my memory is subject to interpretation.

All true---as far as we know. Then again, every now and again, we find out different. Here are a couple of examples----and they are the only two I know about.

#1. I had two 3rd Model Single Shots, #'s 4807 and 4826. I wondered if they'd been made on the same day----so I asked Jinks---fully expecting to get my head handed to me for wasting his time with dumb questions. Here's his reply----in part: 4807----was part "of the production run of 31 units completed on May 9, 1911 and entered into the shipping vault on that date." 4826----"this pistol was in the production run of this model completed on June 21, 1911 and entered into the shipping vault on that same day." I sat and stared at that for a bit, and then it occurred to me that the folks involved in selling these things had to know EXACTLY what they had available to sell. Then I decided there was a shipping vault log kept up day by day to tell them EXACTLY that----and that Jinks' response to me came from that log. The next thing that occurred to me was Jinks "has more than 100,000 S&W items" in his paper collection----and that such as a shipping vault log might very well be among them.

#2. I was hot after a .44 H.E. 3rd Target (#54911)----a SUPER RARE gun. I knew there were such out there that wouldn't letter as targets---but I didn't know why---and I damn well needed to know why before I turned loose of a big pile of money for this gun!! So I started asking around----and nobody knew. Well, almost nobody knew. I finally asked Jinks---called him on the phone. He told me 54911 was made in 1938---BOOM!!----just like that--- on the phone----no pawing through a pile of paper----BOOM!!, and he told me I was good to go-----end of conversation. I was a happy camper---aside from the fact I still didn't know the why of it----and I still wanted to know that. Then I called Ed Cornett----another walking encyclopedia---and he told me the why of it----chapter and verse----and I was an even happier camper!!

I'd done been edumacated!!

The End!!

Ralph Tremaine

By the way, under the heading of "Go figure!", 4826 (an 8") was a "special order for a single unit", and was shipped 3 days after it was completed. 4807 (a 6") sat in the shipping vault until November 11, 1915(!!)------FOUR AND A HALF YEARS later!! Oh---GO FIGURE!!

And I did get my head handed to me for wasting his time asking dumb questions, but he answered them first. Then he said, "This certainly establishes that they were not produced in the same production lot of Perfected Single Shot Pistols."

Yes, indeed---it (certainly) does!
 
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Hi all
I take advantage of the thread to ask you this question. Are there any M&Ps built (or assembled) before the war, left unsold and shipped after 1945? Could my M&P serial 653xxx have been sold after the war? Does the writing on the hammer appear in guns sold after the war?
Thanks
Giorgio
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I would bet $100 that gun shipped before the War.
No, patent dates are not usually seen on post war guns, but many parts were in stock that had them. However, the old hammers in stock that had patent dates were not usable with the new hammer block of 1945. ;)
 
I've been asked how/why I came up with this shipping vault log business---GOOD question!

First off, look at the wording---"entered into the shipping vault"---NOBODY talks like that! You might "put" something into the vault----you might "send" something to the vault, but NOBODY enters anything into a vault!! BUT----you most certainly do enter something into a log. THAT just JUMPED out at me!!

That's all there is, there ain't no more!

Ralph Tremaine
 
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No, patent dates are not usually seen on post war guns

Actually, Lee, virtually all the S prefix M&Ps had patent dates on the top of the barrel (except the 2" units). A few C prefix units also shipped with patent dated barrels. It may, of course, be that those barrels were left over from the wartime period, but 180,000-190,000 of them? I tend to doubt it.
 
Thanks for the info on this gun. Again, could someone also provide a guess as to actual value of this 1948 S&W. I really didn't pay that much for it and now am really curious as to its estimated value!
 
No, patent dates are not usually seen on post war guns
Actually, Lee, virtually all the S prefix M&Ps had patent dates on the top of the barrel (except the 2" units). A few C prefix units also shipped with patent dated barrels. It may, of course, be that those barrels were left over from the wartime period, but 180,000-190,000 of them? I tend to doubt it.


Jack,
I did not make it completely clear that I was addressing Giorgio's question about patent dates on hammers.
Agreed, patent dates appear on barrels up into the C series. I once sold a bunch of C series M&Ps for a fellow. There were quite a few, and they spanned the deletion of patent dates from barrels. It was years ago, and, unfortunately, I lost the pics in a computer crash. Now, I can't remember the number range where it occurred and I did not make notes! :(

Hi all
I take advantage of the thread to ask you this question. Are there any M&Ps built (or assembled) before the war, left unsold and shipped after 1945? Could my M&P serial 653xxx have been sold after the war? Does the writing on the hammer appear in guns sold after the war?
Thanks
Giorgio
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I would bet $100 that gun shipped before the War.
No, patent dates are not usually seen on post war guns, but many parts were in stock that had them. However, the old hammers in stock that had patent dates were not usable with the new hammer block of 1945. ;)
 
Thanks for the info on this gun. Again, could someone also provide a guess as to actual value of this 1948 S&W. I really didn't pay that much for it and now am really curious as to its estimated value!
I would say it would sell somewhere around $400. It shows enough wear to keep it from going higher.
 
Thank you. Didn't pay that much and got 2 boxes of ammo and holster.
 
Jack,
I did not make it completely clear that I was addressing Giorgio's question about patent dates on hammers.
Agreed, patent dates appear on barrels up into the C series. I once sold a bunch of C series M&Ps for a fellow. There were quite a few, and they spanned the deletion of patent dates from barrels. It was years ago, and, unfortunately, I lost the pics in a computer crash. Now, I can't remember the number range where it occurred and I did not make notes!

Thanks for the clarification, Lee. Sorry I misunderstood you.

The highest number I have identified with the patent dates on the barrel is C4484

I would say it would sell somewhere around $400.
I would agree with that assessment.
 
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