Luger Guys, what the heck is this!?!?!?

[2hawk]

While browsing the local emporium of fine pre-owned merchandise, I spied an odd looking pistol lurking behind the commemorative knives and black powder pistols.

Asking to see it, I was somewhat amazed that it appeared to be an authentic Luger 22 trainer, assuming that such a thing was ever made. No box, paperwork, or anything else that could help me with identification. No other parts. But, it was too interesting to pass up, so it's now on layaway.

The orange grips (Lucite?) apparently had a child's photo in them that the shop took out and tossed , but they do add to the mystery.

So, without further ado, here are some photos. If anyone can tell me what it is I am buying I would really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!

Luger 22 photos:



















Any guess on actual value? I made the deal for a bit less than the asking price, and the shop has a good return policy, so no risk to me at this point.
TIA

 

[A10]

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/History Book/convkit2.htm

EDIT: This looks like it.

 

[jonny13sb]

Verrrrrry interesting....

 

[2hawk]

It is a conversion kit installed in an apparently full caliber gun, that much is clear. I have been able to find the Erma conversion kits online, but unfortunately this one doesn't have any of that (box, paperwork, etc.) with it. I suspect there was an original toggle and magazine that got lost or tossed somewhere along the line

But it still seems to want to follow me home, that much I know for sure

A10, thanks, that's one that I saw too. Man, I wish it had all the goodies... but it looks like a fun gun in any case

 

[2152hq]

Erma Werk 'S.E.L. for P08'
The German version is something like 'Selbstlade EinsteckLauf fur P.08' w/a couple of umlautes and correct spellings.

It's a conversion unit in semi-auto that was sold by ErmaWerk both on the commercial market and to the German Military.
The Military started using them in the mid 1930's. One complete conversion unit came in a wooden chest or tray of sorts. Complete w/ all the necesary bbl sleeves, cleaning do-dads and such.
One unit would be alloted for each 25 or 30 pistols issued.

They were used right through WW2 and yours is WaffenAmpt (sp?)marked including the magazine which makes the value climb. It shows definite German WW2 property and issue.

IIRC the Luger ejector is removed from the frame of the pistol to install this conversion. A place in that wooden tray/chest was made expressly for storing that valuable part when using the pistol as a 22 trainer.
(Removing the P08 pistols ejector can result in easily breaking it if bent beyond what is necessary to pull it from the frame,,careful)

The bbl of the conversion was made long so it could be used in the 2 different length pistols (Army, Navy). The different length bbl sleeves were provided to take up the difference in length.
Steel sleeves early on,,brass during the 1940's generally (but not a hard and fast rule).

IIRC a separate unit with an Artillery bbl lengh was made for that pistol (LP.08)

The holster is an WW1 ArtilleryModel (LP.08) holster that has had some modifications done to it. Still of value in itself though.

The Luger pistol looks like a mis-matched numbered mostly WW2 era Mauser mfg from the looks of the proofs.
Removing the conversion unit,,with an entire toggle assembly and ejector and magazine,,you'd have a 9mm Luger back also.
Those parts and assemblys do come up for sale.

The big item is the Erma WW2 marked conversion.
I don't know what the asking price is on them now. But there are Pre-War, War time and,, Erma marked Post-WW2 units made in the late 50's and 60's
They all carry different values.
The War time with German Military issue marked parts (and matching #'s) would be my guess for the most desireable.
Perhaps more than you paid for the whole rig. Do some checking around. Simpsons in Ill deals in Lugers and may have a conversion set for sale to get an idea of price. But pay close attension to the era and also be aware that they made simple single-shot conversion kits for the Luger also. These don't bring as much money as the true semi auto versions.

The pin extending from the rear of the breech is the firing pin and also serves as a very easy visual cocking indicator for the instructor as well as the student.

 

[2hawk]

2152hq, thank you sir! I am clueless about Lugers, and you obviously know your stuff. The information you've posted is terrific, and I appreciate it very much!

ETA, of course now I have more questions
If I could find the toggle, ejector, and a magazine, would I then be equipped to have a full caliber gun?
Any ideas on the grips? I have not seen any like this before on any gun, except maybe an ASP, but the provision to put a photo or somesuch into them is intriguing.
And, of course, the big question - Would I be a fool to load it up and see how it shoots?

TIA

 

[Buford57]

The Lucite grips were a popular wartime handcraft - pass the time whittling a piece of aircraft windscreen into a new set of grips under which a photo of wife, sweetheart or child could be displayed. It was done for issued and privately owned weapons as well as war trophies.



Photos add to the allure, but are frequently thrown away by knuckleheads whose historical perspective starts with the time they saw "Full Metal Jacket".

 

[2hawk]

Buford, thanks! Yeah, the guys at the shop are not the most cognizant when it comes to collectibles, even though that is their business...

So the grips are "period correct" then? That would be a plus.

 

[Buford57]

Buford, thanks! Yeah, the guys at the shop are not the most cognizant when it comes to collectibles, even though that is their business...

So the grips are "period correct" then? That would be a plus.

There's no reason to think they haven't been with the gun for years, unless they turn out to be of a material developed since WWII. From the pics they look enough like others of the era. Your Luger originally had checkered walnut grips like these.





So while not original to the pistol, your grips may well date to the period when, probably, it passed from German to GI hands.


The rest of the above pistol is what originally went in your holster.

 

[LVSteve]

Photos add to the allure, but are frequently thrown away by knuckleheads whose historical perspective starts with the time they saw "Full Metal Jacket".

Consider that comment well and truly stolen.

 

[2152hq]

Here's 3 Erma conv kits for the Luger listed on Simpsons website
Luger Accessories, Simpson Ltd
(They are about 1/2 way down the 2nd page of 'Luger Accessories' on their website,,,link doesn't work too well for me)

You can see the wide range in price,,the WW2 issue w/(mostly?) matching #'s & the wooden box bringing the most. A Police (Nazi era) marked unit the next in line w/it's smaller box and mixed #'s.
The cardboard boxed units were (I thought) commercial sale units, but the 3rd one is said to be Military marked. Perhaps just a bundled box and unit or maybe one pressed into service.
The Post War units were boxed up in cardboard boxes and were all commercially sold. Some will have InterArms markings on them.

They can get pretty lofty in price, but you have to consider the place is selling at top collector price generally. Plus the items are boxed,,even if the boxes aren't original or original condition to the piece. It all makes a difference just like buying/selling a complete firearm.

,,and yes with a complete toggle assembly,,an ejector and a magazine you could put the pistol back to a 9mm Luger.
Luger parts are expensive, but once in a while the complete toggle assembly is offered at a decent price. A repro mag would do for the magazine for a shooter IMO.

The gun appears to be mostly a WW2 era Mauser mfg from the '42' ring marking and the side proofs. That's good as they are strong, reliable pistols and switching parts around on them usually doesn't involve the often mentioned Luger hand fitting problem that can be present in earlier mfg'r.

I'd try a repro mag from MegGar. I've got several that I use.
They work well and are inexpensive as far as Luger mags go.
Originals are $$ and many are worn or out of spec from 'adjustments' done by previous owners over their lifetime trying to get stubborn Lugers to work.

A WW2 mfg toggle assembly (Mauser) will have the Mauser mfg code '42',,or 'S42' marking on the top of the breech.
Others like a DWM or Erfurt, will fit perhaps needing a little help.
Make sure the extractor is present as well as the firing pin and springs in the assembly. I can't remember if you need a new rear toggle pin or if the original is used in the conversion.
...Might be better to buy a complete Luger in 9mm!

I wouldn't be against shooting the 22 conv unit. I'd try 22Standard Vel first and see if that'd work it OK, If not then HV if needed.
Remove the unit from the frame and check it over first. IIRC there are 2 coil springs inside the breech block that act as the recoil spring(s). Make sure they're both in place.

 

[2hawk]

Thanks again for the good information!
I couldn't stand it, I went and picked it up today.

It was easy to figure out the take down for separating the top end from the frame, but I cannot figure out the removal of the toggle. It does look like the pin needs to be removed, but I am not going to do anything until I can find instructions. Frustrating, because the barrel sleeve goes in from the breech end, and the toggle needs to be removed to get the sleeve out. I'd like to see the bore of the 9mm, but I can wait. The .22 bore is pristine- looks like a brand new gun inside. All the springs seem to be in place and functioning correctly.

I will need to get it to the range this weekend. I am feeling pretty happy with this purchase, so far...

 

[2hawk]

OK, got it apart, and a few more pics

Like most things, it's easy if you know how...
Took the orange paper out of the grips and put it aside, and managed to get the toggle and barrel insert out without mishap. It looks excellent internally.










Just got to find a Mauser toggle assembly now...

 

[Buford57]

Consider that comment well and truly stolen.

Use it in good health.

 

[Cyrano]

Your pistol has the ejector in place, so that's one part you won't have to buy if you want to restore the 9mm capability.

I had one of the post war units in a cardboard box, from Interarms. It would only work with high velocity 22s.

 

[2hawk]

Cyrano, thanks. I was wondering about the ejector.
I took it to the range yesterday, and it seems to function pretty well with Fed. Auto-Mag.

And, oddly enough, a couple of Mauser toggle assemblies are in my sights. I may be able to return this to 9mm more easily than I first thought.