USAF was the first to adopt the Colt/ArmaLite AR-15 in significant numbers, wonder why they didn't also adopt a modern 9mm semiauto pistol like the M-39 to partner with the AR-15 in the 1960s during the Vietnam War for combat Security Police squadrons? US military still had loads of S&W and Colt revolvers left over from WW2 and Korea for those needing a revolver like pilots and dog handlers. My USAF base armory had Colt Det. Spec. that were liked for courier and base finance office duty. The M-39 would of been the perfect compliment to the the AR-15 and light years ahead of the other US services.
M-39 for USAF
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VASCAR2
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Probably because General Curtis LeMay never fired a model 39 or was never invited to a BBQ sponsored by Smith & Wesson.
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There were military model 39s; Forum member Kevin Williams would be happy to discuss them. But large orders of a non-standard gun, in a non-standard caliber, when (as you noted) huge numbers of .38 Special revolvers and .45 ACP pistols were available? You might have answered your own question. 
Green Frog
Member
There was a rumor going around that the "Boys from Langley" had a strategy of planting bombs in some of the VC and NVA ammo dumps in the form of 9mm ammo filled with TNT. There were just enough of them to shake the confidence of potential users, and of course they didn't want our people to accidentally pick up one of the "surprise packages" by accident.
I've never seen this officially acknowledged, but I've heard that for a while the use of 9mm sidearms by US forces was proscribed. Anybody else hear this?
Froggie
I've never seen this officially acknowledged, but I've heard that for a while the use of 9mm sidearms by US forces was proscribed. Anybody else hear this?
Froggie
Hill_Country
Member
I was in-country 70 to 72. Let's say I knew a guy who knew a guy and leave it at that.
The base and station personnel had a choice between a 9mm Hi-power or a .38 model 36 as assigned weapons. Many also had access to 9 mm Uzi's, too (that's another story). "Field" personnel got whatever they wanted. So obviously there was no prohibition on the use of 9mm.
With all that said, my personal experience was that about anything was available through informal channels - both spooks and GI's. At one time I had a 60 and a 79 for home defense and routinely carried a model 36 or 10 .38 S&W with an assortment of secondary weapons. Wish I knew then what I know now about ballistics.
The base and station personnel had a choice between a 9mm Hi-power or a .38 model 36 as assigned weapons. Many also had access to 9 mm Uzi's, too (that's another story). "Field" personnel got whatever they wanted. So obviously there was no prohibition on the use of 9mm.
With all that said, my personal experience was that about anything was available through informal channels - both spooks and GI's. At one time I had a 60 and a 79 for home defense and routinely carried a model 36 or 10 .38 S&W with an assortment of secondary weapons. Wish I knew then what I know now about ballistics.
kwill1911
Member
Since Alan has called me out...
General Curtis LeMay's was presented with a Model 39 in July, 1959. It came with 2 barrels--this one and a standard one:
He was later given a Model 559:
The Air Force started officially issuing Model 39s to their General Officers in 1967. They were never issued to other personnel.
The Navy bought hundreds of Model 39s and issued them to certain officers and the SEAL teams used them extensively. Of course, the Model 39-2 was the basis for the "Hush Puppy," a version with a slide lock and a silencer used by the SEALs.
General Curtis LeMay's was presented with a Model 39 in July, 1959. It came with 2 barrels--this one and a standard one:
He was later given a Model 559:
The Air Force started officially issuing Model 39s to their General Officers in 1967. They were never issued to other personnel.
The Navy bought hundreds of Model 39s and issued them to certain officers and the SEAL teams used them extensively. Of course, the Model 39-2 was the basis for the "Hush Puppy," a version with a slide lock and a silencer used by the SEALs.
A friend I worked with was a Capt.. Artillery,said he traded/bought a Swedish-K 9mm submachine gun, and a Browning HP for concealed carry off base. IIRC against Regs but he said he felt better with a handgun off base.
VASCAR2
Member
Since Alan has called me out...
General Curtis LeMay's was presented with a Model 39 in July, 1959. It came with 2 barrels--this one and a standard one:
He was later given a Model 559:
The Air Force started officially issuing Model 39s to their General Officers in 1967. They were never issued to other personnel.
The Navy bought hundreds of Model 39s and issued them to certain officers and the SEAL teams used them extensively. Of course, the Model 39-2 was the basis for the "Hush Puppy," a version with a slide lock and a silencer used by the SEALs.
I'm always amazed by forum member's knowledge in this forum. I never knew General LeMay was presented a model 39 but I do remember reading about the S&W 9 mm Hush Puppy used by the seals.
Thanks for posting!
Regarding the acceptance of the "new" Colt rifle and why the S&W M-39 didn't come along for the ride one must remember the push back from other military branches regarding the .223. It wasn't well received and field use revealed many flaws in the platform and I am sure more than a few "I told you so's" were uttered. The Army didn't really want a .223 and the Marines didn't either, but it was more or less forced on them by the Administration at the time. I can only imagine what would have happened if you yanked the 1911 out from under the military establishment at the same time they were forced to accept the Colt .223. The word "mutiny" comes to mind. This is an interesting subject when you really read all that happened and the role JFK's administration played in this event.
Rick H.
Rick H.
Rick H. I realize that General LeMay was very fortunate to buck the military/political establishment to get the AR-15 for the Air Force and the 9mm M-39 would be even more difficult to justify. At that time the Air Force was armed with a collection of well used M1/M2 carbines and S&W 38s left over from WW2 and Korea. In hindsight it looks as if the vested interests did just about everything short of sabotage to make sure no new weapons would be adopted.
kwill1911
Member
I don't think it was "vested interests." S&W developed the Model 39, Colt offered the Commander, High Standard created a new 9mm pistol--all in response to the Ordnance Department's plan to adopt a new, lighter service pistol in that caliber. Ultimately, there were so many M1911A1 pistols still in service that it didn't make economic sense to go to a new pistol/caliber. Pistols play a minor role in wars. The USAF preferred revolvers and officially adopted the S&W Model 15 in 1962.
Since Alan has called me out...
General Curtis LeMay's was presented with a Model 39 in July, 1959. It came with 2 barrels--this one and a standard one:
Kevin, Thanks for the info. Also, If my facts are correct, on November 11, 1956 a Class 'A' Factory engraved Pre-39 shipped and it was inscribed to General Curtis E LeMay. My research indicates that it may be serial number 2387. Another gun shipped in 1956 inscribed to Major General Walter C. Sweeney but I don't have any other details.
General Curtis LeMay's was presented with a Model 39 in July, 1959. It came with 2 barrels--this one and a standard one:
Kevin, Thanks for the info. Also, If my facts are correct, on November 11, 1956 a Class 'A' Factory engraved Pre-39 shipped and it was inscribed to General Curtis E LeMay. My research indicates that it may be serial number 2387. Another gun shipped in 1956 inscribed to Major General Walter C. Sweeney but I don't have any other details.
kwill1911
Member
Thanks, Rich. I didn't know about 2387 or Sweeney's pistol.
You and I need to spend time together at the Symposium and catch up. Hard to believe I knew something you didn't. That has to be a first. lol
kwill1911
Member
Ha! You've forgotten more than I know but I do look forward to seeing you in Glendale.
I wonder if they were referring to the "Bogus Bullet" program?
I heard about that many years ago and obtained a description of it. I think I still have it downstairs in my file of strange information.
Hill_Country
Member
I don't know where the Swedish K's came from, but there seemed to be a lot of them around and the people who had them really liked them. I often wondered if, like the Uzi, they were really a good weapon or people just liked them because they were sexy - the spook factor.
The HP was kind of like the 1911 in that it was tough to conceal, but reassuring in the hand. In fact, I don't remember anyone who actually carried one and I'm sure they warmed many a desk drawer.
My friend of a friend one time related a story about an "embassy" office that sent all of their people to the range at TSN to qualify. Most were "retired" field personnel and round-eye wives/secretaries. They showed up with an assortment of weapons, most of which had never been fired or even cleaned. The armorer/rangemaster just rolled his eyes, made sure they kept them pointed mostly downrange and handed out ammo.
From my point of view, the Viet Nam 9mm sabotaged ammo is just an Internet Myth. The CIA modified 7.62x39mm ammo by pulling the bullet and replacing the powder with the explosive PETN (pentaerythritol tetranitrate). Google "Project Eldest Son" The 7.62x39mm ammo was used by both the AK47 and SKS rifles so a large range of weapons could be sabotaged by the same ammo. Once the Agency sabotaged the rounds, there was a country wide notice to GIs not to use the AK or SKS weapons for personal carry because a load of defective ammo had been shipped from China. Why would 9mm be sabotaged? There were not many 9mm handguns in Viet Nam. The only 9mm handgun issued in Viet Nam was the Hi Power, issued to CIA people. Why would they sabotage ammo for their own guns? If pistol ammo was going to be sabotaged, it would have been 7.62x25mm ammo.
No. The "Bogus Bullet" program was an effort to sabotage ammo used by the criminal element in the US. The idea was to put just enough powder in the case to push the bullet out of the case and lodge it in the barrel. The gun would have not fired a lethal bullet but would cause the gun to "blow-up" when the next live round was fired. The creator of the "Bogus Bullet" program was trying to sell the idea to the police departments in the US. I attended some of his presentations and the general consensus was he was a "waco". There was no way to determine which cartridge had been modified so there was great concern with the sabotaged rounds ammo being mixed-up with live rounds. The word went out, "stay away from this guy" and the program died a sudden death.
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