I shoot zero 124 jhp @ 1.060" as well as zero 147g jhp @1.130" . These function in my Apex and my factory barrels. As for Wilson Combat they stand behind their products just like Barsto. If you get a barrel that won't shoot well. Call them and they will send you a new one. Ask me how I know. I do test all loads/barrels in a ransom rest
M&P 1.0 accuracy?
- Thread starter Axis223
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Since I have experience with first production run M&Ps in both .40 and 9 mm, I feel I need to make a comment here. SOME M&P9s have issues with tolerance stack where a maximum slide gets a minimum barrel. Not all. I had an extended back and forth with Randy from Apex on the issue of barrel fit since any large groups are definitely my fault.
Also, based upon experience with transitional training of X00 folks from a TDA platform to the M&P40, there is a definite learning curve on trigger management. [Yes, we heard a lot of complaints about grouping during the initial phase of the training-keep reading.] The 1.0 was designed to closely mimic the trigger stroke of a DA revolver. A great many people tend to lose patience with the comparatively long (for a semi) trigger stroke and finish up with a hearty yank. Unless/until you've successfully adapted to the possibly new to you trigger action, replacing parts does little but burn money and possibly give you a warm fuzzy feeling-or maybe screaming frustration if it doesn't help. It does help considerably to keep the trigger pinned back while the slide runs back and forth and then return the trigger only far enough to reset the trigger.
If you do happen to have an issue with tolerance stack, then by all means, a different barrel may be the cure. But you'd be best advised to rule out the human factor first.
Any change in twist rate has an almost entirely mental effect upon grouping. Unless perhaps you're loading heavy bullets at air pistol velocities to make power factor.
Added edit.
There was an extensive thread on this in the last quarter of 2015 with considerable input from Randy. There's brief test to see if you might actually benefit from a different barrel.
With an unloaded pistol, remove the recoil spring assembly and take down latch (don't lose the spring). Invert the pistol to install the slide & barrel, put the slide in it's normal position on the frame. Check to make sure the barrel in in it's proper position and check for vertical movement at the chamber area. Then do the same for the muzzle. Should be no/minimal vertical movement.
Second step- while carefully watching the chamber area/hood of the barrel for vertical movement, slowly move the slide back like it's recoiling. The slide should move about 5/32-3/16 in before you see vertical movement. If you're seeing fairly noticeable vertical movement in either case, you might benefit from a plus size barrel.
Also, based upon experience with transitional training of X00 folks from a TDA platform to the M&P40, there is a definite learning curve on trigger management. [Yes, we heard a lot of complaints about grouping during the initial phase of the training-keep reading.] The 1.0 was designed to closely mimic the trigger stroke of a DA revolver. A great many people tend to lose patience with the comparatively long (for a semi) trigger stroke and finish up with a hearty yank. Unless/until you've successfully adapted to the possibly new to you trigger action, replacing parts does little but burn money and possibly give you a warm fuzzy feeling-or maybe screaming frustration if it doesn't help. It does help considerably to keep the trigger pinned back while the slide runs back and forth and then return the trigger only far enough to reset the trigger.
If you do happen to have an issue with tolerance stack, then by all means, a different barrel may be the cure. But you'd be best advised to rule out the human factor first.
Any change in twist rate has an almost entirely mental effect upon grouping. Unless perhaps you're loading heavy bullets at air pistol velocities to make power factor.
Added edit.
There was an extensive thread on this in the last quarter of 2015 with considerable input from Randy. There's brief test to see if you might actually benefit from a different barrel.
With an unloaded pistol, remove the recoil spring assembly and take down latch (don't lose the spring). Invert the pistol to install the slide & barrel, put the slide in it's normal position on the frame. Check to make sure the barrel in in it's proper position and check for vertical movement at the chamber area. Then do the same for the muzzle. Should be no/minimal vertical movement.
Second step- while carefully watching the chamber area/hood of the barrel for vertical movement, slowly move the slide back like it's recoiling. The slide should move about 5/32-3/16 in before you see vertical movement. If you're seeing fairly noticeable vertical movement in either case, you might benefit from a plus size barrel.
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Rodinal220
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Acceptable accuracy, for Duty/SD use to me would around 3" at 25 yards. At closer ranges like 10 yards or less you should be able to shoot golf ball to dime size groups. Most quality service type pistols can do this. I own 92s, BHPs, H&K P7, SIG P series, Colt 1911 9mm, Glock, XD/XDM and a Chinese type 213. Each has "different" handling and mechanics, but no secret sauce techniques.
They all out shot my 2012 mfg M&P FS 9mm even the Norinco. You can search this forum for my posts on M&P accuracy woes and others. Not all pistols were bad, and it seemed that the 9mm full size models were the worst offenders.
Apex, all the way. They are currently working on re-engineering their FS gunsmith fit 4.25" barrels. Had a nice chat with Randy Lee at the 2019 NRA Convention about the barrels. Really nice guy to talk too and thanked him for his stellar product line.
Shoot your gun with different types of ammo both supported and from a rest and see if its "acceptable" for you. If it shoots 7-8" patterns at 7-10 yards like mine and others, then look into an Apex barrel.
They all out shot my 2012 mfg M&P FS 9mm even the Norinco. You can search this forum for my posts on M&P accuracy woes and others. Not all pistols were bad, and it seemed that the 9mm full size models were the worst offenders.
Apex, all the way. They are currently working on re-engineering their FS gunsmith fit 4.25" barrels. Had a nice chat with Randy Lee at the 2019 NRA Convention about the barrels. Really nice guy to talk too and thanked him for his stellar product line.
Shoot your gun with different types of ammo both supported and from a rest and see if its "acceptable" for you. If it shoots 7-8" patterns at 7-10 yards like mine and others, then look into an Apex barrel.
Great question.
A Ransom or mechanical rest when used properly eliminates human interference. The vise holds the gun and allows it to fire without a human hand on the gun, finger on the trigger, or eyes aligning sights.
At short handgun ranges, i.e., 25 yards and closer, it is very useful to "rest" the gun and reduce wobbling. The potential for accuracy increases. Very, very few shooters can properly test the accuracy of a handgun by shooting it without a solid, unmoving support or rest.
Sitting behind a bench, comfortable, grip the gun with both hands in a proper firing grip. Rest your forearms and hands on the bench, propped in place as necessary by small bags that won't move. Socks filled with sand will work.
Do not rest the front of the gun on anything. It may tweak the barrel and produce inconsistent groups. Your hands benefit from support at the sides, not just underneath, to reduce lateral wobbling.
Shoot at a real paper target with aiming points and at a known distance. Start closer (10 yards) until you are good with this. In truth, start at home (even at 10') with such a set up and dry fire. The goal is to have perfect grip, sight alignment and trigger actuation that produces no movement of the sights.
At the range you will deal with recoil. Control it through proper grip. This is a real mental exercise as well as a physical one. Try for perfection. Reset your position after each shot. Go slowly. Shoot for a group with a minimum of five shots. More is better. Make notes on each target.
I'm sure others will chime in with their methods. The point is to test the accuracy potential of a gun/load while reducing to the greatest extent possible human interference.
Failure to control rested horizontal spread:
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A solid rest of any sort, such as sandbags, is suitable for testing a duty-grade pistol. As long as you can control sight alignment and operation of the trigger with confidence, you're ok.
I don't see an M&P9 very often that groups 3-inches at 25-yards. I think those are the exception rather than the rule, particularly with the earlier models, though that could also be said of the 2.0s I've fired. I would generalize more in the 5-inch range, and wouldn't be surprised to see worse due to a flyer. Unless called, flyers cannot be discounted - though many shooters do.
Don't hesitate to try 147 grain bullets. I have seen 147s make a considerable difference in two pistols that I can think of. In one case, it was dramatic. Ammo was Federal American Eagle.
I don't see an M&P9 very often that groups 3-inches at 25-yards. I think those are the exception rather than the rule, particularly with the earlier models, though that could also be said of the 2.0s I've fired. I would generalize more in the 5-inch range, and wouldn't be surprised to see worse due to a flyer. Unless called, flyers cannot be discounted - though many shooters do.
Don't hesitate to try 147 grain bullets. I have seen 147s make a considerable difference in two pistols that I can think of. In one case, it was dramatic. Ammo was Federal American Eagle.
CB3 mentioned something I neglected. When it comes to a good grip and controlling the pistol as the cartridge ignites and the bullet leaves the barrel (called follow-through), I've found using the Hogue Handall to be very helpful with the early M&Ps that don't have the grippy texture that the 2.0 frames have. Try one. It's a very small investment - less than a box of cartridges.
I actually misplaced my backstraps and ordered the 2.0 backstraps a few months ago. I will try the Hogue grip. Thanks for the info.
Axis223 I have an old hoppe's adjustable rifle rest and several sand filled leather bags both for the top of the rest and flat bags and rifle butt stock bags so I can always find that just right height . Guess I had these things for 40+ years . I'm not as good a shooter as I once was and have to work harder at it today . I wear trifocals too but if I'm going to try to shoot " iron " sights now it try to shoot early in the day and before I get any commuter time . Red dots and scopes are still easy to shoot well and sorta like cheating and I just don't enjoy shooting at structured ranges at all as I have got'n older .
Defensive shooting and some handgun group size checks is done at a little home range I have .
Defensive shooting and some handgun group size checks is done at a little home range I have .
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I have used a simpler plastic base with a rubber-lined plastic triangular support up front. The tendency is to place the front of the gun in that forward support and depending on the pressure applied, groups may open up as the rest may apply inconsistent pressure to the barrel. It can be overcome.
Also, I have found nothing is more steady than having your forearms and wrists (as much as possible) on the bench. Most of these commercial rests have you raise the gun and your wrists off the bench, and that is actually less steady for me.
Carrying four small bags (socks half filled with sand in sandwich bags) is cheaper, easier and just as effective and very adaptable to different guns.
Just find what works for you to get the gun really steady. Try at home first.
Axis 223 yea that Caldwell pistol should work ok
stavey Ransom rest !! Really Nice cost effective tool if you have $600 plus to spend on it with the base and pads
Guess you could take it to Utah or ship it to him use it , right !
stavey Ransom rest !! Really Nice cost effective tool if you have $600 plus to spend on it with the base and pads
Guess you could take it to Utah or ship it to him use it , right !
It's a one time investment. Other than inserts. The way I see it . If I'm going to be spending my TIME and MONEY to reload thousands of rounds a year. I would be silly not to own the only tool that ensures I'm getting the most accurate loads everytime for my invested time and money.
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I bought a new Ransom rest w/ windage base years ago and eventually sold it. The late Al Miller, former HANDLOADER and RIFLE magazine editor did some fairly extensive work with the Ransom. He concluded that a skilled shooter using a proper rest on a solid bench should be able to get the same group sizes at 25 yards that one could obtain with the Ransom at 50 yards. A big difference in using the Ransom vs. benchrest is the fact that a shooter becomes fatigued, often without knowing it. Group sizes suffer as a result. I tend to agree, but none of this is worth argument.
I've never had an M&P semi-auto. Are these guns generally very accurate out-of-the-box?
I've never had an M&P semi-auto. Are these guns generally very accurate out-of-the-box?
I've tested at 25 yards using the ransom , if I remember correctly factory barrels of both 4.25 core and 5" pro series would do around 3" at 25 yards. Fitted with an Apex both guns easily shoot around 1" consistently. That accuracy combined with an rds makes for a very fun shooting experience.
Axis223 . Purdy good group less the fliers . My only down side to real sand bags is I also use to shoot revolvers alot when younger and the cylinder gap blast can make very short life of sand bag heavy fabric material if not covered in leather . Had a face full of sand before !! Ha
stavey Don't believe that all pro series will shoot 3" groups at 25 yards . My wife owns a 4.25 core PS shot patterens not groups when stock and after apex trigger group upgrades . It went home to s&w when still stock for some TLC and they said it was in spec .. It was not a respectable shooter till an Apex GS barrel was added and it was darn near a drop in too . Just a few licks on the hood was all it needed to fit .
I must be one of those guys that does not need a ransom rest to shoot desent groups but then I don't spend all day at a range testing guns or loads .
stavey Don't believe that all pro series will shoot 3" groups at 25 yards . My wife owns a 4.25 core PS shot patterens not groups when stock and after apex trigger group upgrades . It went home to s&w when still stock for some TLC and they said it was in spec .. It was not a respectable shooter till an Apex GS barrel was added and it was darn near a drop in too . Just a few licks on the hood was all it needed to fit .
I must be one of those guys that does not need a ransom rest to shoot desent groups but then I don't spend all day at a range testing guns or loads .
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I load thousands at a time . Testing to make sure I'm getting the most for my money only makes sense. Not to mention I'm not dumping mags into silhouettes at 7 yards. If you think your sandbag tests are good enough and you are happy that's all that matters. Besides I'm sure you are a regular Annie Oklie .
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