M&P-15 and other ARs: What's the difference?

For what's worth, I'm finding the banter back and forth to be quite informative. The AR world is relatively new to me and while I have come here knowing somethings, the nit picking of the fine details has actually been helpful. There is a lot of misinformation out there about who makes MIL spec and who doesn't etc., etc. Keep up the good work.
 
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I will add this. Buying an M&P-15 is probably one of the best places to start. They have a couple of very inexpensive models so, it's easy to get started. Plus, S&W is a well known company with a good reputation for customer service.

I don't own an M&P-15. I do have a couple of ARs that I've built myself. If I have a problem, I'm on my own. If a part breaks there's no warranty; I just have to buy another.

So, even if there is no real difference, there is value in buying the M&P.
 
Bring something to shoot....shoot what you bring! Everyone has their favorites and preferences, and that is the beauty of our sport. I can appreciate an old school GI Vietnam era musket M16, just as much as a Gen 3 Noveske!
 
cyphertext said:
The biggest difference between say a Colt and the S&W is that with the Colt, you get a "mil-spec" or "built to TDP" rifle. In other words, it is a basic carbine rifle that is very close to being the same as the M4 as issued by Uncle Sam, with the main difference being the happy switch and barrel length.

For the same money with S&W, you get more features.... You can sometimes find the M&P 15 MOE for the same price as a Colt LE6920. The S&W uses a semi auto bolt carrier, different twist rates, possibly different barrel treatments like Melonite depending on models.

So, which do you like? Features or "mil-spec"?
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I have a s&w m&p15 and a colt le6920. I paid $960 total new for the colt this past year, maybe $700 for an OR smith about 5years ago. The colt is hands down the nicer AR and it shows everywhere in the build quality for not a whole lot more $, and I'd argue was the better buy over my particular optics ready Smith overall. That said, the m&p15 has been 100% flawless and also a joy to own.
 
Jagrmaister said:
I have a s&w m&p15 and a colt le6920. I paid $960 total new for the colt this past year, maybe $700 for an OR smith about 5years ago. The colt is hands down the nicer AR and it shows everywhere in the build quality for not a whole lot more $, and I'd argue was the better buy over my particular optics ready Smith overall. That said, the m&p15 has been 100% flawless and also a joy to own.
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I can agree that with prices where they are today, I would be hard pressed to not give the LE6920 consideration. But I can not agree with Colt getting the nod on "build quality" based on things that you can see. I have not seen a Colt yet that compares to the fit and finish of a M&P.
 
I will state, in my opinion..... that when you are looking at AR's, there truly are 3 classes.
1. Heese/ Vulcan/ Plum Crazy. And unfortunately, a few dozen others....
2. S&W, Colt, Spikes, Stag, DPMS, and about a hundred others.
3. LMT, Christensen, LWRC, LaRue, and a few....very few others.

When it comes to middle of the road, these rifles are truly like a Chevy/ GM. You have a pickup truck, and a Cadillac Escalade. You have a Caprice, and a Corvette. All are pretty good, to VERY GOOD. The prices run from really affordable, to expensive, but not insanely expensive. (And, to be really fair, a spectacular value in most cases.):)
And the 3rd group, well...... they are the Bentleys, the Ferraris' of the AR. Fit, finish, parts, attention to detail..... and the price tag that goes with it.;)

The first group are Yugos and Kia's. So that about covers that.....:rolleyes:
 
OK, so the AR is a pretty generic gun. What makes the group 3 rifles worth the extra coin? The only one I'm familiar with out of that group is the Christensen and I haven't shot one. I have seen them with $3K price tags though. A local gun store has about 10 of them on the wall. What makes them better?
 
Rastoff said:
OK, so the AR is a pretty generic gun. What makes the group 3 rifles worth the extra coin? The only one I'm familiar with out of that group is the Christensen and I haven't shot one. I have seen them with $3K price tags though. A local gun store has about 10 of them on the wall. What makes them better?
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It's not that the AR-15 platform is a generic rifle. The differences in the different tiers is due to the fact that the original patents on the AR-15 platform are expired. This opens the door for anyone to build dimensionally correct parts. This is a two edged sword. You drive down prices due to competition. The downside to that competition is the use of inexpensive dimensionally correct parts made from questionable material and trying to drive down assembly time and cost.

As we are keenly aware, there is no free lunch. A per unit manufacturing/production cost is the determining factor. To increase one aspect, you must take from another.

The top tier priced rifles come from shops that make their name from comparatively low production volume and obsessively high attention to detail rifles. Component parts are sourced and verified to meet that shops criteria. Some shops fabricate their own parts. Rifles are assembled by a few craftsman, and not an assembly line.
 
There are ARs made to mil-spec dimensions but not necessarily exact mil-spec material nor testing. Most ARs fall into this category.

There are ARs that are made to mil-spec dimensions and material and inspection. Typically cost a couple hundred more dollars than above.

There are AR type rifles that are not necessarily made to mil-spec dimensions, particularly the receiver custom made to mate with custom hand guards and monolithic, custom canted reciver rail, adjustable gas systems for suppression... on and on... there are other differences too numerous to mention from finish to trigger and everything in between. The prices can be $2k and up. The "worth" is highly subjective.

A lot of what you are paying for is advertising hype. Ever take a look at gun rags? Every other page is an AR ad.

So which one to choose can sound like a staggering ordeal of selection and comparison. It isn't. Pick one. Learn what you like and don't like and go from there.
 
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Let's see... AR ads Guns & Ammo May 2014 edition

Daniel Defense full page ad
DPMS full page ad
Ruger full page ad
BCM half page (AR grip)
LWRC full page ad
Core full page ad
Windham Weaponry half page ad
Stag Arms full page ad
Black Rain Ordnance half page ad
Rock River Arms full page ad
Less Baer full page ad (includes all guns too)
LMT half page ad
S&W M&P full page
Lancer half page ad

So at least you know where your money is going. :D.

On an unrelated side note... Funny... there was exactly zero revolver ads. :rolleyes:
 
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JaPes said:
That is a travesty. Learning to shoot a revolver is a moral imperative, just like learning to drive a manual transmission.
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These young kids don't want to shoot revolvers... are you kidding? Too low speed, all drag for today's operator!
 
JaPes said:
As we are keenly aware, there is no free lunch. A per unit manufacturing/production cost is the determining factor. To increase one aspect, you must take from another.
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Yes, I understand all that, but this is exactly why I asked the question.

I'm a gun geek. As such, I research whatever I'm interested in a lot. For example, I can tell you why I'd be willing to pay the extra cash for an Ed Brown 1911 over a Rock Island 1911. Even though they are the same basic gun, there are differences.

Thus, I asked about the differences in the AR manufacturers. Surely there are more tangible differences than just advertising costs? Does a Christensen shoot more accurately than an M&P?
 
Rastoff said:
Yes, I understand all that, but this is exactly why I asked the question.

I'm a gun geek. As such, I research whatever I'm interested in a lot. For example, I can tell you why I'd be willing to pay the extra cash for an Ed Brown 1911 over a Rock Island 1911. Even though they are the same basic gun, there are differences.

Thus, I asked about the differences in the AR manufacturers. Surely there are more tangible differences than just advertising costs? Does a Christensen shoot more accurately than an M&P?
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What sets the M&P apart for me was the price. It has been used frequently with zero problems. I do own several of the pricier ARs, LMT and H&K, both piston guns. Are they any more accurate than the S&W? At 100 yards with an ACOG there is no difference for me. Asthetically I like the way the H&K looks but that does not make it any better than the M&P. I think it just boils down to personal taste. I agree with your statement about Rock Island and Ed Brown and I just happen to be a H&K guy!
 
Rastoff said:
Does a Christensen shoot more accurately than an M&P?
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Just as the top tier 1911's hold a greater inherent potential for accuracy, the top tier rifles have the same greater inherent potential for accuracy. As we all know, the biggest factor that affects accuracy is the nut behind the trigger. :)

IMO, as you approach the cutting edge of improvements in an AR-15 it requires a marksman of exceptional skill and experience to eke out the accuracy potential of a rifle.

Put a rifle made from questionable parts and construction in my hands and a M&P-15, my skill level should evidence a marked difference of accuracy between the bottom barrel & the M&P 15 rifle. Put a M&P 15 rifle and a Top Tier rifle in my hand, and I am not proud to admit that you'll most likely not see much of a practical difference in accuracy between the two because I don't have the level of marksmanship skill to eke out every last bit of accuracy potential of the top tier rifle.

Also, I consider a semi-auto AR-15 to be a "practical" combat/defense rifle. As long as I can snag center mass hits, I'm a happy camper. It just so happens that I can practice bullseye shooting with an AR-15. If I'm going to go for accuracy at long distance, I'm going to choose a bolt action rifle. I don't have much experience behind the trigger of a bolt action rifle. So given my lack of experience, I'm not going out to buy the top of the line bolt action rifle. I need something to practice fundamentals. I have a Ruger American .308Win for that.
 
JaPes said:
It's not that the AR-15 platform is a generic rifle. The differences in the different tiers is due to the fact that the original patents on the AR-15 platform are expired. This opens the door for anyone to build dimensionally correct parts. This is a two edged sword. You drive down prices due to competition. The downside to that competition is the use of inexpensive dimensionally correct parts made from questionable material and trying to drive down assembly time and cost.

As we are keenly aware, there is no free lunch. A per unit manufacturing/production cost is the determining factor. To increase one aspect, you must take from another.

The top tier priced rifles come from shops that make their name from comparatively low production volume and obsessively high attention to detail rifles. Component parts are sourced and verified to meet that shops criteria. Some shops fabricate their own parts. Rifles are assembled by a few craftsman, and not an assembly line.
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This is a great explanation. Quality of parts manufactured, QC, detail in assembly, all are factors in the "Cost of Sale". And anyone that says "All AR's are created equal" is either ignorant or a fool. The "TDP" was developed to give a minimum requirement for the construction of the firearm including required rifling and material specs. There are Tier 1 companies that exceed the "TDP" and as such their products have a higher "Cost of Sale".

Does everyone need a Tier 1 rifle? Hell no. You first need to figure out what are YOUR requirements for a rifle and its intended use. Then buy one that fits that "Spec". just my $.015
 
In the commonly available aluminum alloy construction rifles in the $600 - $1,200 range, they really are created pretty much equal in my eyes. The exterior bolt ons and doo dads may make them look different, but their operation and overall quality is the same. Bigger companies are driving down costs via the economy of scale.

TDP was developed to give a minimum construction specification for M16/M4's produced under contract for the U.S. Military. The TDP is held exclusively by Colt. It's treated as a trade secret such as the secret recipe for Coca-Cola. While Colt isn't the only entity that can contract with the U.S. Military, anyone who wants to produce a rifle to TDP must pay a royalty to Colt.

TDP = Secret Sauce = Not published to the general pubic.

So if some company other company other than Colt, H&K, and FN claim to build their rifles to TDP, how much credibility can you assign to that claim? Since the general public can not view the TDP, there is no independent verifiable means to confirm that a civilian AR-15 meets any applicable portion of the TDP.

LMT, LaRue, Christensen, LWRC, Noveseke and the top tier rifle makers trade on well earned reputations.

Ironically, the AR-15 is one of the more difficult platforms on which to find easy to explain examples of differences between the $600 - $1200 price range and the top tier / holy moley price rifles. It's easier to do with an AK-47. For example the difference between a former communist block nation AK-47 import and a Krebs Custom AK-47 are night and day.
 
JaPes said:
TDP = Secret Sauce = Not published to the general pubic.

So if some company other company other than Colt, H&K, and FN claim to build their rifles to TDP, how much credibility can you assign to that claim? Since the general public can not view the TDP, there is no independent verifiable means to confirm that a civilian AR-15 meets any applicable portion of the TDP.
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Yeah, but so what? What could possibly be in the TDP that we don't already know? All the dimensions and specifications are public knowledge. The only possible aspect that can be held secret is the chemical/geological make up of the metal itself. They can keep that all they want. I'm sure any of a hundred companies can make parts every bit as durable as Colt makes using their secret TDP.
 
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