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M&P 2.0 Suppressor Ht. Sights - Optics Options?
- Thread starter Triumph65
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SoCalDep
Member
Hi there!
The M&P 2.0 is a great pistol and well designed optic platform. With your setup (optic ready with supressor-height sights) you have a couple of directions you can go with an optic.
Option 1: Get a new set of lower sights and look into low-deck optics like the Holosun SCS-MP2 or EPS/EPS Carry.
Option 2: Use the plate system to mount an optic that is compatible with your current sights.
Which option you choose is largely going to be based on what you want to do with your pistol and what optic you like. Selecting an optic is in many ways a personal choice. People often recommend going with a green or red dot or a particular dot size/reticle type, but that input is about as valuable to you as them recommending you buy their pants size. They don't have your eyes. My recommendation is to check out both red and green (if you can) from several different optics and decide what you like better.
Pistol optic features you should consider:
Optic size: May be important for concealed carry.
Optic window size: May be important for peak performance shooting, but a large window will affect optic size and may not be ideal for concealed carry.
Reticle type: Red, green, dot, circle-dot, chevron, outer circles such as the ACSS reticle, etc. This will depend very much on personal preference, though there are "guidelines" such as a larger dot can often be run at a lower brightness that may be less distracting from the appropriate target focus used with an optic. I have a pretty significant astigmatism, so I very much prefer a small dot, but I know people with astigmatism who feel a large dot works better for them... it's very much a "you do you" thing.
Mounting solutions: The M&P uses an adaptor plate system for pretty much everything except the SCS, so you'll need to decide what plate to use. Factory metal plates are pretty good. Plastic is decent but if the optic comes loose it's likely to damage the plate much quicker. There are aftermarket options, but discussing plates is sort of useless until you've settled on one or a couple of optic options. One thing to consider is that the most frequent optic failure I've seen is the optic coming loose. If you choose a Trijicon RMR or similar optic that has a bottom-load battery you'll have to re-mount every time you change the battery and that's another chance for the mount to "fail" and the optic to come loose.
User Interface: How are the buttons laid out? Is the optic shake-awake? Does it auto-adjust to ambient light or revert to auto-adjust after a certain period of time? What does the user interface do to the battery life? Will you have to change batteries frequently? Are you willing to do that or do you want a really long battery life?
Open or Enclosed Emitter: An enclosed emitter simplifies maintenance and can be an advantage in certain environmental conditions depending on carry (exposed vs. concealed, etc.). If an enclosed emitter is a requirement for you it limits your optic choices.
Personal Beliefs: Are you OK with an optic made in China? Are you OK with an optic that has bible verses referenced on it? Are you like me and mad that EOTech took an optic that's made in China and available from other "brands" for way less, spec'd different buttons and is selling it for twice as much? Did one manufacturer piss you off at some point and you refuse to buy from them?
Preferences: I love my Aimpoint ACRO P1 and P2. Many feel they look like a mailbox on top of the gun and just can't take how ugly it looks... I get that.
Those are some initial things to consider.
The M&P 2.0 is a great pistol and well designed optic platform. With your setup (optic ready with supressor-height sights) you have a couple of directions you can go with an optic.
Option 1: Get a new set of lower sights and look into low-deck optics like the Holosun SCS-MP2 or EPS/EPS Carry.
Option 2: Use the plate system to mount an optic that is compatible with your current sights.
Which option you choose is largely going to be based on what you want to do with your pistol and what optic you like. Selecting an optic is in many ways a personal choice. People often recommend going with a green or red dot or a particular dot size/reticle type, but that input is about as valuable to you as them recommending you buy their pants size. They don't have your eyes. My recommendation is to check out both red and green (if you can) from several different optics and decide what you like better.
Pistol optic features you should consider:
Optic size: May be important for concealed carry.
Optic window size: May be important for peak performance shooting, but a large window will affect optic size and may not be ideal for concealed carry.
Reticle type: Red, green, dot, circle-dot, chevron, outer circles such as the ACSS reticle, etc. This will depend very much on personal preference, though there are "guidelines" such as a larger dot can often be run at a lower brightness that may be less distracting from the appropriate target focus used with an optic. I have a pretty significant astigmatism, so I very much prefer a small dot, but I know people with astigmatism who feel a large dot works better for them... it's very much a "you do you" thing.
Mounting solutions: The M&P uses an adaptor plate system for pretty much everything except the SCS, so you'll need to decide what plate to use. Factory metal plates are pretty good. Plastic is decent but if the optic comes loose it's likely to damage the plate much quicker. There are aftermarket options, but discussing plates is sort of useless until you've settled on one or a couple of optic options. One thing to consider is that the most frequent optic failure I've seen is the optic coming loose. If you choose a Trijicon RMR or similar optic that has a bottom-load battery you'll have to re-mount every time you change the battery and that's another chance for the mount to "fail" and the optic to come loose.
User Interface: How are the buttons laid out? Is the optic shake-awake? Does it auto-adjust to ambient light or revert to auto-adjust after a certain period of time? What does the user interface do to the battery life? Will you have to change batteries frequently? Are you willing to do that or do you want a really long battery life?
Open or Enclosed Emitter: An enclosed emitter simplifies maintenance and can be an advantage in certain environmental conditions depending on carry (exposed vs. concealed, etc.). If an enclosed emitter is a requirement for you it limits your optic choices.
Personal Beliefs: Are you OK with an optic made in China? Are you OK with an optic that has bible verses referenced on it? Are you like me and mad that EOTech took an optic that's made in China and available from other "brands" for way less, spec'd different buttons and is selling it for twice as much? Did one manufacturer piss you off at some point and you refuse to buy from them?
Preferences: I love my Aimpoint ACRO P1 and P2. Many feel they look like a mailbox on top of the gun and just can't take how ugly it looks... I get that.
Those are some initial things to consider.
Rodan
SWCA Member
My M&P 2.0 carries a Holosun 508. It was my duty gun before I retired, and has seen many thousands of rounds without any issues.
Though there are many options available today that weren't back then, the 508 would still be at the top of my list for a full size M&P.
Though there are many options available today that weren't back then, the 508 would still be at the top of my list for a full size M&P.
@socaldep - Thank you for your comprehensive reply and thank you for your service. I guess I need to go look at sights and figure out what works best for my eyes.
I’m very new to the optics side of pistols. I think my preference would be to keep the Supressor height sights and get a plate mounted sigt, instead of the Holosun SCS & swapping the gun sights. But granted I’m new to all this.
Can’t thank you enough for all the guidance. I will take to heart.
I’m very new to the optics side of pistols. I think my preference would be to keep the Supressor height sights and get a plate mounted sigt, instead of the Holosun SCS & swapping the gun sights. But granted I’m new to all this.
Can’t thank you enough for all the guidance. I will take to heart.
I’ve got a Holosun 507c with the green dot and reticule on mine. Works really well. Didn’t pay much attention to proper torque of the screws or retightening them, so I sheared the screws at around the 1000-1200 round mark. Sent it in to S&W for a quick two week turnaround, bought a F.A.T. wrench, a blue loc-tite stick, and a C&H mounting plate. I torqued the screws properly with some loc-tite and I’ve been good now past the 2K round mark. I also put a little line of marking paint on the screws for a visual confirmation they haven’t moved.
The Holosun has been great, but whichever one you choose, skip the plastic S&W mounting plate and properly torque the screws with blue loc-tite.
The Holosun has been great, but whichever one you choose, skip the plastic S&W mounting plate and properly torque the screws with blue loc-tite.
SoCalDep
Member
I did a fair amount of work with pistol optics in my prior job, and have used most of the common brands up until the past year or so. I’m not big on “just one way” to do things, so this post is more of things to consider.
My first pistol optic was a Type-1 Trijicon RMR with a 6.0MOA dot and auto adjust (no manual buttons). It worked really well for what it was and I think I’ve owned four RMRs since then. I probably won’t buy another though because of the bottom-load battery and the necessity to re-mount to change the battery.
I have a couple SROs and really like them. I ran the testing for my old department and was impressed with the durability and big window. For a purely “shoot my best” optic it’s probably my favorite so far, including considering the Holosun 507Comp… The protruding optic body can mess with holster compatibility and while rare has caused some interesting malfunctions when ejected casings became trapped between the optic body and slide.
I have not tried the RMR-HD or RCR. I like the idea of the HD and would probably buy one if I didn’t already have more than ten optics I’m not even using right now. I’m not sold on the screws or mounting method for the RCR and unless I was stuck with an RMR footprint I think I’ll stick with Aimpoint and Holosun enclosed emitters.
Speaking of Aimpoint… as I mentioned, I really like my ACROs. My last “duty” gun has an ACRO P2 and having seen some very destructive testing of an ACRO and an RMR I think they both are durability kings in their respective worlds. That doesn’t mean they are perfect… I’ve seen both fail. That said I think the ACRO is a very good choice in spite of the small window and mailbox appearance.
Looks like I gotta run out so I’ll hit on Holosun, Leupold, Burris, EOTech, and some of the Sig optics when I get back.
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SoCalDep
Member
As for Holosun… I really like them. I have at this point probably close to twenty and have owned around a couple dozen in total. Multiple 407Cs, 507Cs, 507Ks, Glock SCSs, 508Ts, have owned a couple 509Ts, an EPS, two EPS Carry’s, a 507Comp, and a 407A that was used for my old department’s testing since it was 2020 and supply issues prevented us from getting a sample in time. That testing included three drops on concrete from 3, 4, and 5 feet. The optic is still functional and has been mounted on a few guns since then.
As with just about every optic out there I’ve seen Holosuns fail, but at no higher rate than other optics out there. In fact, in my experience Holosuns punch well above their price. Further, I think they have driven the pistol optic market more than any other brand since Trijicon sorta made it practical with the RMR. They offer green and red retitles, multiple reticle configurations, and multiple dot sizes depending on which model one chooses. I think the 507Comp has 8 reticle choices! Since they introduced the enclosed 509T, which is a good optic, they’ve followed up with the EPS series - a phenomenal enclosed choice for duty or CCW, and I believe that at least one of the SCS series is now enclosed as well.
With all that, what is the downside of Holosun? They are made in China like our iPhones. Lots of people don’t like that… Which is fine and for them Holosun is a non-start.
Leupold originally came out with an optic called the DeltaPoint. I have no experience with it. I don’t know anyone who did. There may have been a reason for that because Leupold came out with the DeltaPoint Pro and it seems to have been pretty successful. Indeed… lots of guys from a unit in the Army that is commonly referred to as “Delta” have emerged on the scene running that optic. Rumor is they had a hand in the development. I don’t know. I do know that it is decent. I have one on an Sig M17 and a Unity Tactical ATOM Glock slide, as well as another on an offset AR mount. I’ve owned at least one other that left on the pistol I sold. I haven’t personally had any issues but I know several co workers who did… we saw several break. One went almost 40,000 rounds before mysteriously cracking the window (still worked) and then a few thousand rounds later the shake-awake stopped working, but as long as you turned it on it continued to function. The older versions with the green circuit boards had issues. The newer (I think they changed in 2021) version with the blue circuit boards seem to work much better.
Besides some issues with function in the older units, the DeltaPoint Pro suffers from serious glare in low sun angles, has a VERY high deck (you won’t be able to see your suppressor sights with it mounted regardless of the plate you use… you’d have to get higher sights), adjusts with a single button that is between the emitter and the window - which makes adjusting a bit of a pain, and even with the shake awake can eat batteries pretty quick. I think there must be some parasitic drain on the battery even when “off”. It’s also not very durable if dropped compared to the RMR, ACRO, Holosuns, and even the SRO in my experience.
I don’t consider the DeltaPoint Micro a “true” pistol optic in the same way as the rest and would not own one.
Burris has several pistol optics out now. I’m familiar with the RXS-250 (I think it’s called). I actually like it. It’s a DeltaPoint Pro footprint but with a lower deck, top-load battery, and better adjustment. I haven’t dropped them or put a crazy ton of rounds through them but they seem nice for the money.
Speaking of Burris… If you have the opportunity, look at one… especially the bottom, and then look at the EOTech pistol optic - whatever it’s called. They look VERY similar… but in spite of the fact that they are likely the exact same optic with some aesthetic changes, EOTech charges a lot more. Hmmm… That, coupled with a serious case of hate toward numerous issues I’ve had with their rifle optics and for my money I’ll always go elsewhere.
I’ve only owned one Sig optic… a Romeo Zero. It felt cheap but it worked. I replaced it with a Holosun 507K as soon as they became available. I’ve seen a bunch of Romeo 1Pros come through classes and most of the time they work well. I used an original Romeo 1 during an Sig Sauer Academy Red Dot Instructor class in 2018 and it worked fine with one exception. A single time I drew and the dot did not “shake awake”. I aligned the irons and the dot was not there. I don’t know why, but my solution at the time was to slap the poop out of the side of the gun… dot came back on and worked fine the rest of the class. Turns out violence sometimes is the answer.
I’ve seen the “lazy Sig optic” failure to wake up a couple other times in classes with the 1Pros, but they always come back on eventually, then don’t seem to have the problem again. I don’t know what to make of it. People generally have good things to say about other Sig optics but I have no experience with them.
Then there are other players who are either small, new, or targeting a “lower” quality market and I don’t have much experience with those. Swamp Fox, CHPWS, and others may be great but I have no experience with them to speak of and no real desire to move away from the proven platforms when the others don’t really offer anything groundbreaking.
As with just about every optic out there I’ve seen Holosuns fail, but at no higher rate than other optics out there. In fact, in my experience Holosuns punch well above their price. Further, I think they have driven the pistol optic market more than any other brand since Trijicon sorta made it practical with the RMR. They offer green and red retitles, multiple reticle configurations, and multiple dot sizes depending on which model one chooses. I think the 507Comp has 8 reticle choices! Since they introduced the enclosed 509T, which is a good optic, they’ve followed up with the EPS series - a phenomenal enclosed choice for duty or CCW, and I believe that at least one of the SCS series is now enclosed as well.
With all that, what is the downside of Holosun? They are made in China like our iPhones. Lots of people don’t like that… Which is fine and for them Holosun is a non-start.
Leupold originally came out with an optic called the DeltaPoint. I have no experience with it. I don’t know anyone who did. There may have been a reason for that because Leupold came out with the DeltaPoint Pro and it seems to have been pretty successful. Indeed… lots of guys from a unit in the Army that is commonly referred to as “Delta” have emerged on the scene running that optic. Rumor is they had a hand in the development. I don’t know. I do know that it is decent. I have one on an Sig M17 and a Unity Tactical ATOM Glock slide, as well as another on an offset AR mount. I’ve owned at least one other that left on the pistol I sold. I haven’t personally had any issues but I know several co workers who did… we saw several break. One went almost 40,000 rounds before mysteriously cracking the window (still worked) and then a few thousand rounds later the shake-awake stopped working, but as long as you turned it on it continued to function. The older versions with the green circuit boards had issues. The newer (I think they changed in 2021) version with the blue circuit boards seem to work much better.
Besides some issues with function in the older units, the DeltaPoint Pro suffers from serious glare in low sun angles, has a VERY high deck (you won’t be able to see your suppressor sights with it mounted regardless of the plate you use… you’d have to get higher sights), adjusts with a single button that is between the emitter and the window - which makes adjusting a bit of a pain, and even with the shake awake can eat batteries pretty quick. I think there must be some parasitic drain on the battery even when “off”. It’s also not very durable if dropped compared to the RMR, ACRO, Holosuns, and even the SRO in my experience.
I don’t consider the DeltaPoint Micro a “true” pistol optic in the same way as the rest and would not own one.
Burris has several pistol optics out now. I’m familiar with the RXS-250 (I think it’s called). I actually like it. It’s a DeltaPoint Pro footprint but with a lower deck, top-load battery, and better adjustment. I haven’t dropped them or put a crazy ton of rounds through them but they seem nice for the money.
Speaking of Burris… If you have the opportunity, look at one… especially the bottom, and then look at the EOTech pistol optic - whatever it’s called. They look VERY similar… but in spite of the fact that they are likely the exact same optic with some aesthetic changes, EOTech charges a lot more. Hmmm… That, coupled with a serious case of hate toward numerous issues I’ve had with their rifle optics and for my money I’ll always go elsewhere.
I’ve only owned one Sig optic… a Romeo Zero. It felt cheap but it worked. I replaced it with a Holosun 507K as soon as they became available. I’ve seen a bunch of Romeo 1Pros come through classes and most of the time they work well. I used an original Romeo 1 during an Sig Sauer Academy Red Dot Instructor class in 2018 and it worked fine with one exception. A single time I drew and the dot did not “shake awake”. I aligned the irons and the dot was not there. I don’t know why, but my solution at the time was to slap the poop out of the side of the gun… dot came back on and worked fine the rest of the class. Turns out violence sometimes is the answer.
I’ve seen the “lazy Sig optic” failure to wake up a couple other times in classes with the 1Pros, but they always come back on eventually, then don’t seem to have the problem again. I don’t know what to make of it. People generally have good things to say about other Sig optics but I have no experience with them.
Then there are other players who are either small, new, or targeting a “lower” quality market and I don’t have much experience with those. Swamp Fox, CHPWS, and others may be great but I have no experience with them to speak of and no real desire to move away from the proven platforms when the others don’t really offer anything groundbreaking.
I have been using and testing optics for the MP for several years. Picked SoCalDep's brain many times. I really like the SCS platform, but it defiantly needs lower height sights. It is not unusable with the high sights, just not ideal. Swapping the front is easy it the standard sight. Smith has the rears available. I don't have the SKU but a phone call would likely get you one. Other options are plates. Nothing wrong with the factory plastic, but I would not really trust it for a duty weapon if that is your need. Calculated Kinetics has a plate with a shelf to mitigate some of the blowback on the lens from the LCI. It does help with that, and sits just a bit higher than the stock plate. I rather like that with the high sights because it gets them just a bit lower in the window. Currently testing a 509t with the CHPW plate and really like it. Using a 507K on my Shield and have beat the **** out of it. Trying out an EPS Carry that has been solid and it might replace the 507. Lots of great options out there, just depends on how big your wallet is.
I've got 2 different optics ready 2.0 full size models that came with factory tall night sights. The older CORE branded model came with Trijicons, the newer one has the TruGlo, but they're the same height.
I had an RMR Type on a C&H plate on the older 2.0 that has since been replaced by a green 507C ACSS. The RMR had a one of the battery tabs break just from normal use, which is not an unheard of issue. The iron sights were a bit more visible in the window with the RMR, but they're still usable with the 507C.
The newer 2.0 has a 509 ACSS mounted on a C&H plate. The C&H plate's fitment is not as tight as the RMR/507C plate on the other pistol. Unfortunately, it's the only game in town since the 509 ACSS inexplicably doesn't use the same footprint as the 509T. The 509 has a taller deck height, and the sights are barely visible through the window. However, I've shot drills with the optic off as well as drills the optic taped up, and one can still make combat effective center mass hits at 5 yards and in using the 'dead' optic like a ghost ring or occluded eye shooting for the taped up optic.
I've also got a 507K on a P365XL and an EPS Carry on a Shield Plus.
In a professional or open carry capacity, I would lean towards a closed emitter optic like the Holosun 509, EPS, Trijicon RCR, or Aimpoint ACRO. Some people insist that you HAVE to have a closed emitter optic these days, but having carried both, I don't share that view.
Everything is a tradeoff.
In an duty/open carry capacity, having a closed emitter makes more sense to me due to more likely environmental exposure. It means that any precipitation or debris can be wipes off the back of the lens to clear it, and the emitter itself can't be blocked. However, if the seal gets compromised, the optic can fog up and will have to go back to the factory for repair.
Closed emitter optics have also historically been larger. Holosun has gotten around this in the EPS line by using a smaller CR1620 battery. Holosun probably has the best LED emitters in the game because they're really an optics sub-brand of an industrial emitter company (Huanic), but multi-reticle versions of the EPS line have lower battery life than models using CR1632 batteries.
I'm perfectly fine with the 507C for concealed carry even if it's not as durable as the RMR, 509, 508T, or EPS. The curved shape isn't the strongest for durability (though still pretty tough), but it conceals well compared to boxier shapes. You'll periodically have to wipe off the back of the lens due to lint/skin cells, but it's really not that big of a deal.
I had an RMR Type on a C&H plate on the older 2.0 that has since been replaced by a green 507C ACSS. The RMR had a one of the battery tabs break just from normal use, which is not an unheard of issue. The iron sights were a bit more visible in the window with the RMR, but they're still usable with the 507C.
The newer 2.0 has a 509 ACSS mounted on a C&H plate. The C&H plate's fitment is not as tight as the RMR/507C plate on the other pistol. Unfortunately, it's the only game in town since the 509 ACSS inexplicably doesn't use the same footprint as the 509T. The 509 has a taller deck height, and the sights are barely visible through the window. However, I've shot drills with the optic off as well as drills the optic taped up, and one can still make combat effective center mass hits at 5 yards and in using the 'dead' optic like a ghost ring or occluded eye shooting for the taped up optic.
I've also got a 507K on a P365XL and an EPS Carry on a Shield Plus.
In a professional or open carry capacity, I would lean towards a closed emitter optic like the Holosun 509, EPS, Trijicon RCR, or Aimpoint ACRO. Some people insist that you HAVE to have a closed emitter optic these days, but having carried both, I don't share that view.
Everything is a tradeoff.
In an duty/open carry capacity, having a closed emitter makes more sense to me due to more likely environmental exposure. It means that any precipitation or debris can be wipes off the back of the lens to clear it, and the emitter itself can't be blocked. However, if the seal gets compromised, the optic can fog up and will have to go back to the factory for repair.
Closed emitter optics have also historically been larger. Holosun has gotten around this in the EPS line by using a smaller CR1620 battery. Holosun probably has the best LED emitters in the game because they're really an optics sub-brand of an industrial emitter company (Huanic), but multi-reticle versions of the EPS line have lower battery life than models using CR1632 batteries.
I'm perfectly fine with the 507C for concealed carry even if it's not as durable as the RMR, 509, 508T, or EPS. The curved shape isn't the strongest for durability (though still pretty tough), but it conceals well compared to boxier shapes. You'll periodically have to wipe off the back of the lens due to lint/skin cells, but it's really not that big of a deal.
