M&P Revolvers

[ISCS Yoda]

I guess I'm likely the only one around here who doesn't know this and it's probably been asked before but, begging forgiveness, here goes:

Why are there three revolvers in the current M&P series of S&W handguns? The R8, which is an 8 shot, Scandium version of the N-framed Model 27 (I think), plus being equipped with rails, etc., and two Model 342 J-frames.

My questions really are:

1. Why are they M&P guns?
2. What makes them M&P guns (all of which I thought were modern, polymer framed pistols - silly me) instead of just being listed in the revolver section of the S&W on-line catalog?

Thanks.

***GRJ***

 

[epj]

The M&P name was assigned to a revolver nearly 100 years before there was a plastic self loader.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

The M&P name was assigned to a revolver nearly 100 years before there was a plastic self loader.

Yes, I am very much aware of that. But it went away with the advent of the Model numbers, I think, or maybe when the S&W guns had real names, which was before the Model numbers.

But when S&W brought BACK the M&P name in recent years I only noted it as being assigned to the new, 21st century style of pistol, not to any revolvers. I didn't actually notice the M&P mark associated with wheelguns until today. I knew about the 340 J frames but never noticed the moniker "M&P" associated with them. I guess I wasn't paying attention. It was in a thread about the R8 that I picked up on it.

THAT'S why I asked.

***GRJ***

 

[snw19_357]

Even after they introduced model numbers, S&W revolvers have always had names.
The Model 13 was introduced in 1974, long after model numbers, and it is the .357 Magnum Military and Police (M&P) Heavy Barrel.

Even in 2005 the Model 10 was still the .38 S&W Special Military and Police but I know what you mean.
There were many years that there were xxxxPD models but it wasn't until 2007, the year after the M&P Pistols came out, that the actual M&P340, etc. started came out.

 

[ohiojerry]

I think the answer to both of the OP's question is that the S&W Marketing Department declared them to be M&Ps. I think it is one way for S&W to say, "yeah, we caved on the lock but we haven't completely forgotten our roots".

 

[Alk8944]

I think the answer to both of the OP's question is that the S&W Marketing Department declared them to be M&Ps. I think it is one way for S&W to say, "yeah, we caved on the lock but we haven't completely forgotten our roots".

BINGO!!

The K-Frame .38 S&W Special fixed sight revolver was and always has been the "Military & Police Model", Usually shortened to M&P. All Model 10 revolvers are M&Ps, although the reverse is only true for revolvers manufactured from 1957 on. It continued this way until 1964 when S&W introduced the Model 58, which was dubbed "The .41 Magnum Military & Police". This was because of it's appearance as a larger version of the "Heavy Barrel M&P", and it's intended use by law enforcement in precisely the same role as the .38 S&W Spl. revolvers had filled for some 65 years prior to that point. These were the only guns to legitimately bear the M&P moniker through several different owners of the company until purchase by "Safety Hammer" which has become the "S&W Holding Co."

Several years ago S&WH (mis)appropriated the M&P name for their versions of the M-16/M-15 etc. Since then they have applied the M&P name for a series of plastic fantastic guns and, again finally, some revolvers. This was strictly to capitalize upon the justified fame of the original M&P model in production and used extensively by law enforcement and military users from 1899 until the model was finally discontinued(?) fairly recently.

Plain and simple, it is marketing and nothing more. The current owners think they can call anything they want to an M&P, unfortunately.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Trademark

Plain and simple, it is marketing and nothing more. The current owners think they can call anything they want to an M&P, unfortunately.

I appreciate the education on nomenclature. I guess it's like "Hand Ejector"; all the current S&W revolvers are "that", are they not?

As for the quote, it's clearly true - it's a S&W trademark for firearms so they can use it on any gun they so choose. Here's the official filing records - they have several for M&P but this is the basic one which they obviously renew every ten years:

1.

Word Mark M&P
Goods and Services IC 013. US 002 009. G & S: Firearms. FIRST USE: 20050124. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050124
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 85520139
Filing Date January 19, 2012
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition June 5, 2012
Registration Number 4194679
Registration Date August 21, 2012
Owner (REGISTRANT) Smith & Wesson Corp. CORPORATION DELAWARE 2100 Roosevelt Avenue Springfield MASSACHUSETTS 01102
Attorney of Record Hara K. Jacobs
Prior Registrations 3336344;3392903;3697138
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Hara Jacobs is named on all of the S&W filings:

2.

Word Mark SW SMITH & WESSON COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION
Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: association services; namely, promoting the interests of weaponry through the dissemination of information concerning weaponry to the trade and to the public. FIRST USE: 19910800. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910800
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 01.01.03 - Star - a single star with five points
26.01.18 - Circles, three or more concentric; Concentric circles, three or more; Three or more concentric circles
26.01.21 - Circles that are totally or partially shaded.
Serial Number 74483237
Filing Date January 27, 1994
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition August 1, 1995
Registration Number 1958275
Registration Date February 27, 1996
Owner (REGISTRANT) SMITH & WESSON COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION NOT FOR PROFIT CORPORATION MISSOURI 2711 Miami Street St. Louis MISSOURI 63118

(LAST LISTED OWNER) SMITH & WESSON CORP. CORPORATION BY ASSIGNMENT DELAWARE P O BOX 24 GREAT BEND KANSAS 67530
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record Hara K. Jacobs
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Description of Mark Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark. The mark consists, in part, of the stylized letters "S" and "W".
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20050525.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20050525
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

There are a number of S&W and SW trademark filings.

But here's a shocker - - -

There is no trademark registration for "hand ejector". I'm kind of stunned. If I was Hara Jacobs I'd fix that immediately.

***GRJ***

 

[Ross3914]

IMO a good analog is the auto industry.

Dodge owns the name "Dart" and Chevy owns "Impala" and Ford owns "Ranger", etc. Those names keep cropping up in their lines, even though the current incarnations may have nothing to do with the previous ones.

"M&P" is essentially a marketing name. For many years it was directly linked to a specific line, and now in modern times it's linked to a different one.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

IMO a good analog is the auto industry.

I agree.

Except that time when Chevrolet decided to name a car the "Beretta". Someone else owns that name. It cost them. If the car was still made it would still be costing them.

Another fun parallel, and there are plenty, is Frito-Lay's Doritos brand of chips.

DORITOS® | Frito-Lay

Doritos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The chips might all have "something" to do with each other as opposed to "nothing" but, still, they've gone far afield from the originals. Frito-Lay being one of the best marketing companies in the world, it's no surprise, actually.

***GRJ***

 

[hkcavalier]

^ When were Doritos anything other than corn tortilla chips with flavor on the outside? Not sure I see the connection.

 

[shouldazagged]

Sweet mother of pearl--clam chowder Doritos in Japan?

There's a thought I could have done without!

 

[jdh]

The 327 M&P R8 was the result of a project requested by a LE agency. The entry teams of this agency had the point man carry a ballistic shield with a viewing port. The officer carrying the shield had to reach around it to fire his laser sighted pistol. The problem they were having was the slide of the pistol would sometimes hit the shield causing a malfunction. The agency requested a high capacity revolver with a rail to allow the use of the issued LAM.

Thus the 327 M&P R8 was born, or so the story goes.

 

[hkcavalier]

The 327 M&P R8 was the result of a project requested by a LE agency. The entry teams of this agency had the point man carry a ballistic shield with a viewing port. The officer carrying the shield had to reach around it to fire his laser sighted pistol. The problem they were having was the slide of the pistol would sometimes hit the shield causing a malfunction. The agency requested a high capacity revolver with a rail to allow the use of the issued LAM.

Thus the 327 M&P R8 was born, or so the story goes.

While neat, here I am thinking an MP5K or Mini-Uzi would be a LOT more effective.

 

[jdh]

One handed spray and pray in a hostage situation, really?

 

[KLYDE]

Same situation in the misused label that is now attached to the new "Bodyguard". These new models have about as much in common to their predecessors as an apple does to an orange.


___________________
You can't fix stupid

 

[ISCS Yoda]

When were Doritos anything other than corn tortilla chips with flavor on the outside? Not sure I see the connection.

Well, while not precisely the best example, my point was that FL simply uses that name on a triangle corn chip and then invents flavors to carry on the chip - that's NOT what Doritos(R) were invented for in the first instance. But, okay, there could be better analogies....

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I suppose "Government Model" on a .380 caliber pistol is another one of those analogies.

***GRJ***

 

[hotrod150]

Same situation in the misused label that is now attached to the new "Bodyguard". These new models have about as much in common to their predecessors as an apple does to an orange.

I agree. Ditto for the Chief Special semiautos of a few years ago (CS9 etc). IMHO they should have come up wth some new names for their new-fangled products.

 

[hkcavalier]

One handed spray and pray in a hostage situation, really?

The MP5K fires from a closed bolt and can fire semi...why not? Not a revolver hater (heck I love em) but I'd rather have the option for high firepower vs. not.

 

[jdh]

Can you hold even the K steady enough for a precision laser sighted shot around the shield with one hand while holding the ballistic shield in the other, looking through the shield's view port? Then there is that big protruding mag to bump into and get hooked up on things.

Agree or not, it was a tool requested for a specific function.