M&P's WITH NEW TRIGGER PULL

[loveMD]

Yeah, my fs 9 that I just got over last weekend had a fire slug date of 1/18/13 and has a light blue spring tip.

 

[JNewell]

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were saying that a simple spring change won't miraculously make up for lack of training and/or the real-world effects of a massive adrenaline surge???

Depends.

All that might be said (without actually examining the rest of the gun) is that the yellow slide stop assembly spring, if present, is the latest revision. The original wire spring was unpainted, and then it was followed by a red one, and then a light blue one, and then the yellow one.

The red one remained in the 9's when the .40's & .45's received the light blue one, and then the yellow one came about during some further testing of the .357's, and then was selectively used for repair purpose in some .40's. Now it appears they're going to standardize on the yellow spring in all the standard models.

The original slide stop assembly with the yellow painted wire spring was being used before the slide stop assembly was itself recently revised to add the angled bend on the right/rear bottom corner. I replaced a slide stop assembly with the yellow spring in one of my M&P's with the new revised slide stop assembly with not only the yellow spring, but also with the new beveled corner on the right side lever.

Now, for everyone else who is eager to have a noticeably tactile "reset" ...

All this talk of trying to discover the absolute latest & greatest revisions (plural) in any particular production vintage of M&P's is all fine and dandy, but I've been handling and shooting random models made over the last several years, including some pretty recent ones (and including a M&P VTTC 9) ... as well as some that have had the popular aftermarket parts added to them (by armorers) ... and I've listened to other instructors & armorers express their opinions that they've all started to feel pretty much alike when you stand around on the firing line trying the triggers in both dry & live-fire. Especially in dynamic live-fire drills, when you aren't standing around carefully listening and feeling for "tactile trigger reset".

The whole "sear reset issue" may be popular on the internet, and to slow-fire target/competition shooters ... and the market demand for such a feature has prompted S&W to try and meet the perceived desire for this feature ... but shooting to trigger recovery in dynamic, past-paced & demanding training & qual drills seems to be something you hear discussed more often by LE firearms instructors, compared to trigger reset.

I've seen at least my fair share of folks try to keep their fingers on the triggers of their pistols after firing an intentional shot (or shots), trying to hold them at the "reset point", and then experience their guns unexpectedly firing. Sometimes it's seemed it was them unconsciously rocking the triggers during recoil ... or being startled (which having the weapon unexpectedly discharge can really do, yet further lending itself to another "startle response") ... or experiencing a muscle tremor (yip, etc).

Losing balance momentarily (balance destabilization was the popular term for a while), or hand/finger confusion (mixing up tasks being done by one hand with the other) may also be factors. I've known a couple of highly trained and experienced LE folks end up putting holes in things they didn't intended to shoot when their "trigger fingers" mirrored what their other index fingers were being told to do, performing other tasks in high stress situations.

It's just that if the gun fires without the shooter having made a conscious decision to fire that specific round, the round is still going to land somewhere, and the shooter is still going to be responsible for it ... and being in the position of saying that their finger had been deliberately on the trigger, trying to hold the trigger at the "reset point" when the weapon discharged, isn't something anyone probably wants to try to explain. Especially in a legal proceeding.

Hey, just some thoughts. Sorry for going off-topic, but I sometimes feel this whole "trigger reset" thing is often blown out of proportion and taken out of context by some folks.

 

[RockBottom]

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were saying that a simple spring change won't miraculously make up for lack of training and/or the real-world effects of a massive adrenaline surge???

I agree with both of you. I haven't every been in a real defensive shooting situation, but if I am I know I'm not going to be trying to feel for the reset - I'm going to pull the trigger and release and pull again as fast as I need to until the threat is neutralized.

 

[Fastbolt]

I'm not sure if that is correct re: the yellow slide-stop assembly. I just bought a M&P40 and it had a test fire date of 11/29/12, and it had the light blue paint, so if there is a uniform switch to yellow it is very recent.

Revisions are often slipped into production as existing stocks of parts are used up. It's not like it's a recall or correction of a "bad" part. It's a subtle improvement.

FWIW, I checked a T&E M&P 40 earlier this week and saw that it had the revised slide stop assembly (with the yellow wire & new angled corner on the inside/left of the right lever).

 

[Fastbolt]

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were saying that a simple spring change won't miraculously make up for lack of training and/or the real-world effects of a massive adrenaline surge???

Hey, I can do subtle ...

 

[JNewell]

Revisions are often slipped into production as existing stocks of parts are used up. It's not like it's a recall or correction of a "bad" part. It's a subtle improvement.

FWIW, I checked a T&E M&P 40 earlier this week and saw that it had the revised slide stop assembly (with the yellow wire).

To amplify/expand this, manufacturers generally and S&W specifically almost never have a bright line transition point for changes like this. Even relatively major engineering changes at S&W have almost always been implemented on an ad hoc basis - it's the parts bin effect.

 

[RockBottom]

Revisions are often slipped into production as existing stocks of parts are used up. It's not like it's a recall or correction of a "bad" part. It's a subtle improvement.

FWIW, I checked a T&E M&P 40 earlier this week and saw that it had the revised slide stop assembly (with the yellow wire).

Good to know - thanks! I'm a noob w/my first gun, could you explain what the difference is - both in design and performance - between the light blue and the new yellow? Is it anything to worry about - and/or make it worth trying to find a new yellow one?

 

[Fastbolt]

S&W has been fine-tuning the slide stop lever springs since the gun's introduction in Jan '06.

The yellow wire spring was developed as the result of some intensive testing of M&P 357's (tested by fed agency involving firing 10K rounds over a 2-day period, per gun). It was later used to help address some issues in an occasional M&P 40c (early slide lock-back, due to lever bounce from recoil forces). Back then, it wasn't yet known if the heavier yellow spring might be too strong in some guns, though, meaning the mag spring might not be strong enough to overcome the slide stop lever spring when the mag ran dry.

In my last armorer class we were told the company has now decided it will be okay to introduce the yellow spring as the "standard" spring, at some point.

Bottom line, if your gun runs fine with the blue spring (as does my own M&P 45, using the lever assembly with the blue spring), leave it alone and use the gun as built.

If you were to start experiencing the slide stop lever locking back the slide with rounds still remaining in the magazine ... and it's confirmed (by someone watching you shoot) that it's not being caused by you, with your thumbs bumping the slide stop lever tab upward under recoil, or really fat-nosed hollowpoints ... then I'd call S&W to let them look at your gun.

Just because they introduce some occasional revisions (which they're constantly doing across all their firearms model lines), that doesn't necessarily mean older revisions/parts have to be replaced with the new ones. If it works, it works.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Sorry for going off-topic, but I sometimes feel this whole "trigger reset" thing is often blown out of proportion and taken out of context by some folks.

Well, that is the under statement of the year. Trigger re-set is a solution to a non-existent problem. Well, perhaps it is better described as a solution to an invented problem. Or a perceived problem. Or an armchair warrior/range problem.

I posted the following in another thread in which someone asked about whether you could "hear" the reset:

Well, yes, you can hear it. But, as I am an oldie, I will say this: I think too much is made of this issue. None of us had heard of trigger re-set back in the days of revolvers.

In fact, the practice of not letting the trigger go all the way forward before squeezing again had another name: "short stroking" and it causes malfunctions in revolvers.

So, this competition inspired practice brought about by the design of the excellent Glock pistol, has caused everyone to want to go only to reset and pull again.

As I am occasionally accused of writing up thoughts that point out the opposite side of a given argument, I will only say this: most of my thoughts on gun related topics come from a reasonably long history of combat type shooting - over 40 years now, as well as bullseye and ordinary fun stuff, like point shooting and hip shooting. You know - stuff that is not too terribly helpful in most real life encounters, but is fun to learn and nice to be able to do should you find yourself in one of the few scenarios where you have to point and shoot without bringing the pistol to eye level. Thus, I have reasons for my opinions based on a long history of shooting both revolvers and semi-autos, and I am ready to verify them with reasons.

In any event, I am not a fan of the re-set method of shooting, preferring instead to let the trigger go all the way forward. Using that method all the time does not require you to remember which gun you are shooting and to think about adjusting your technique during an armed encounter.

Mr. Miculek uses revolvers faster than anyone I know, and he has to make sure he does not short stroke the revolver action. In fact, at one time, he used an unbelievably HEAVY trigger return spring - you know - one of the parts that we mortals want to change to make lighter so we can manage the trigger better! No one would say that his speed is in any way compromised in comparison to all of these jolly competition types who advocate the re-set method.

Oh well, if listening or feeling for the click fascinates everyone, then ok, but I am going to go on my happy way shooting as I always have. I have never seen it as a disadvantage, but I can see some disadvantage to programming my hand to the re-set method.

That said, the M&P action has never bothered me at all.

 

[Thegunslinger]

Never have shot the older m&p but my 9c 2 13 13 trigger feels perfect nice and smooth and you can sure feel the reset.

 

[snovvman]

Well, that is the under statement of the year. Trigger re-set is a solution to a non-existent problem.

I respectively offer another perspective. From a law enforcement and tactical shooting perspective, a detectable (not necessarily audible) reset is helpful. A shorter reset is preferred.

We all know that operating a firearm under stress (like when the bad guy is shooting at you) greatly reduces accuracy and fine motor skills. The adrenaline causes the hands to shake and tunnel vision. The way we compensate is to train, train, train, repeat, repeat, repeat. The reset offers an economy of motion, and perhaps microseconds of time savings. That may be enough for life or death. When I do not allow the trigger to fly all the way back, my trigger finger, along with my hand and the gun are moving less, allowing me to better stay on target for the follow up shot.

For combat shooting where you train to always shoot in two round sets, going to reset will pay large dividends in second shot time and accuracy. I have seen it over and over at the range.

The over-travel is yet another story. If you have seen Randy Lee's/Apex Tactical's video on the M&P over travel issue, you can get a sense as to why the "new" circa 2013 triggers offer a better solution for accuracy and combat shooting.

It is all about more accurate and faster follow up shots. And in law enforcement and tactical, they are essential.

Edit: I am not an expert on revolvers. The fact is that we operate semi-automatic equipment that are designed to operate on a reset system for reasons that I articulated above. It is a tactical advantage. At the end of the day, it is all about training. Train the same way, be familiar with the equipment, over and over, so that when you need it, you don't need to think about it. Another VERY GOOD short reset system is the Sig SRT (Short Reset Trigger). It provides for amazingly efficient and fast follow up shots because the reset is so short and tactile.

 

[Der Biermeister]

As you release the trigger, most pistols have a "click" you can feel when you have released the trigger enough to fire another round. This way you dont have to release the trigger completely. the trigger pull shortens and follow up shots can occur quicker. Old m&ps didn't have this. The shield does. Many M&P owners installed a part from APEX to introduce this click, but it appears that S&W listened to the consumer and added this feature.

My M&P 9 FS is about 5 years old. I do NOT like the trigger pull (rated at 6.5 lbs) as it seems to hit a wall before the last part of the pull to enable firing, causing a slight jerk. My Shield 40 had the same issue, so I recently had my local gunsmith install the APEX kit. Smooth as glass now, so I am 99% sure I am going to do the same for the 9 FS. My question is this -- will the APEX kit also resolve this "reset" issue, since my 9 is an older model?

 

[Der Biermeister]

Yes, this.
Dry fire the gun and keep your finger on the trigger with the trigger pulled back.
With your finger still on the trigger, pull the slide back about 1/2" to reset the striker. Let the slide go forward again.
Now, release the trigger slowly, and you should feel and/or hear the reset. It may take a couple tries to notice it.
If there is a noticeable and audible >click<, it likely has the updated parts. If it is vague and not noticeable, it is probably the older style.

Interesting test. I just performed it on my 3 month old Shield 40 (with APEX trigger mod) and my 5 year old M&P 9 FS.
The Shield has a fairly loud click with noticeable tactile feel. The 9 has a much quieter click (but I can hear it) and I can also feel the reset, but again it is not quite as apparent. From this test, I conclude that my 9mm DOES in fact have the proper reset function, but it is just not as noticeable.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I respectively offer another perspective. From a law enforcement and tactical shooting perspective, a detectable (not necessarily audible) reset is helpful. A shorter reset is preferred.

We all know that operating a firearm under stress (like when the bad guy is shooting at you) greatly reduces accuracy and fine motor skills. The adrenaline causes the hands to shake and tunnel vision. The way we compensate is to train, train, train, repeat, repeat, repeat. The reset offers an economy of motion, and perhaps microseconds of time savings. That may be enough for life or death. When I do not allow the trigger to fly all the way back, my trigger finger, along with my hand and the gun are moving less, allowing me to better stay on target for the follow up shot.

For combat shooting where you train to always shoot in two round sets, going to reset will pay large dividends in second shot time and accuracy. I have seen it over and over at the range.

The over-travel is yet another story. If you have seen Randy Lee's/Apex Tactical's video on the M&P over travel issue, you can get a sense as to why the "new" circa 2013 triggers offer a better solution for accuracy and combat shooting.

It is all about more accurate and faster follow up shots. And in law enforcement and tactical, they are essential.

Edit: I am not an expert on revolvers. The fact is that we operate semi-automatic equipment that are designed to operate on a reset system for reasons that I articulated above. It is a tactical advantage. At the end of the day, it is all about training. Train the same way, be familiar with the equipment, over and over, so that when you need it, you don't need to think about it. Another VERY GOOD short reset system is the Sig SRT (Short Reset Trigger). It provides for amazingly efficient and fast follow up shots because the reset is so short and tactile.

I suppose there are good people who do it both ways. I mentioned Mr. Miculek before. Rob Leatham does not use the reset method either, and I would challenge any law enforcement person to out shoot him in speed or accuracy. As far as reduction of fine motor skills, I agree with you that a shooting scenario will cause that. Unfortunately, the reset method requires greater and finer motor skills, which is directly at odds with your statement. We will have to "agree to disagree."

 

[Nakanokalronin]

I just picked up a FS M&P 9mm with the new trigger pull and reset.

I took out the sear and compared it to the Apex one I still have on hand. The geometry is very similar, but the new factory sear has a slightly different finish than the one I remember from my original M&P and it now has a pretty big cavity milled out on one side to lighten it. It's defiantly different so I decided not to even bother dropping in the Apex sear since there might be zero difference.

ETA: My FS 9mm I just picked up has a 3-28-2013 test fire date. I'll reply to this thread with the new sear and Apex sear side by side in a picture.

 

[Robotech]

My late 2012 manufacture FS M&P9 has the new trigger sear assembly, and while I could feel the reset, it was rather "vague", and completely quiet.

In my step-by-step changes/upgrade of the trigger action, testing on each step, while adding the new APEX sear did not make a major improvement in the trigger "feel", there was some. But there was a BIG difference on the trigger reset. It now has a very strongly felt AND heard click! This reset is now very similar to that of my new M&P40 Shield, manufactured earlier this month.

 

[Nakanokalronin]

Apex sear next to a stock sear from the FS 9mm 3-28-2013 test fire date with new trigger pull and reset I just picked up.

 

[d7velo1]

The M&P with the new trigger. The M&P feels the best in my hand when comparing them to the competition. Very classy design, great quality and accurate too. I now have a new favorite polymer pistol line! AND they are made in the USA! Good job S&W.

 

[Nakanokalronin]

Which sear block housing is installed? Does it have the large hole to accept the internal lock / RAM or is it the newer universal thumb safety housing?

I do wonder if S&W is installing the new style sears in both new and old style sear blocks.

Also, are the thumb safety models without the internal lock hole new to S&W? Is this the reason for the sear block redesign? Is S&W phasing out internal lock models? This is all very confusing, especially throwing into the mix any trigger and trigger bar updates.

Here's a link that shows the two different sear block housing designs. Note that the sear pivot pin looks larger in the universal design. Is that right?

M&P VTAC 9mm: A look inside | Modern Service Weapons

Mine defiantly has the newer sear housing.

 

[LennyP]

Newest changes to M&P

I can't speak to the latest model seen at the 2014 Shot Show, but my M&P 40 built late last spring has some interesting upgrades. S&W does listen, guys. S&W has addressed overtravel and reset issues. Included are:

1. A fully machined sear with the "low overtravel" geometry much like the Apex or custom shop sears. Old cast and new machined M&P sears are pictured here.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/attachm...1&d=1393009494


2. Trigger bar marked with an "S" which has a sear loop that is not as tall as previous models. Less overtravel and slightly less trigger pull weight due to the new geometry.

3. Welded on friction pad on the slide stop. The purpose of this solid raised portion is to push the trigger bar inboard to enhance reset.

The gun came from the factory with decent overtravel but a gritty trigger pull and a two click reset. The gritty pull is not the fault of the sear. It never has been. Machining marks on the unpolished trigger bar at the loop and at the striker block actuator ramp were the culprits. 10 minutes polishing these two contact surfaces resulted in a silky smooth trigger pull. There was still an annoying double click reset, however, due to the sharp edge on the trigger bar hanging up on the equally sharp edges on the stock striker block. I did not want to aggressively round off the inside edge of trigger bar to cure this issue. Instead, I installed an Apex Striker block which solved this issue, making the reset as smooth as the trigger pull. Nice tactile single click now. Simply polishing the two sharp edges off of the stock striker block shoulder would accomplish the same thing, but I wanted to stick with a radius that had already been tested by some one so I bought one from the good folks at Apex. I am very pleased.

Bottom line, my gun was darned good right out of the box. 10 minutes spent stoning away machine marks from the trigger bar where it contacts the sear and the striker block made it great. Adding a striker block with no sharp edges made it fantastic. $36 if you buy one from Apex, plus the difficult chore of rear sight removal. My armorer did that job for me in 5 minutes with a proper M&P sight tool. No other modifications or parts needed for a really good defense gun. My armorer says "don't spend money doing anything more." He likes the Apex RAM to aid reset on older guns, but the sear block on my gun and all newer ones are made in such a way that the Apex RAM will not fit. The new slide stop makes the RAM redundant anyway.

For older guns, a machined sear and either the latest model slide stop from S&W or the RAM from Apex should go a long way toward improving M&P triggers if you take a few minutes to stone the trigger bar contact points smooth first. That is the real cure for gritty triggers. It is too bad that many ignore it in their haste to buy a better trigger instead of gently improving the one they already have.

If you are buying an M&P, remove the slide so you can see the slide stop and the sear. You want one with a machined sear and the welded on friction pad on the right side of the slide stop. Both can be easily seen by removing the slide.