M1 question

[NYlakesider]

I got a M1 question. First off I never owned one or field stripped one but I have shot and handled many. When I was in the M14 was our service rifle!

I have read a lot about this great rifle, but I have never seen it mentioned why it had an enbloc clip instead of a detachable magazine. Now the BAR was out there the Thompson and of course the 1911 so he must have been familiar with the detachable mag concept. The M14 which followed had a magazine and its pretty close in many ways to the M1. As great as the M1 was imagine if t had say a 10 round detachable mag and also no pa -ping sound when shot dry.

 

[max]

I don't think there had ever been a general issue military rifle with a detachable magazine or not many. My guess is that the generals felt the magazines would get lost, etc. Also not having a magazine sticking out made the rifle easier to carry. I am kind of guessing, but in the 60's we were still told to load 5 rounds in the 1911 magazine because that was how many they carried in the SAA 90 years before.

 

[brucev]

Why the enbloc clip? Chalk it up to developing a cutting edge infantry rifle against the backdrop of the horrific experience of the WWI trenches coupled with the realities of a war dept. getting by on a understandably restricted peace time budget. Early on development was predicated on designs based on or similar to the 03 and 1917, even using actual parts, etc. Various early requirements for a .276 caliber round later changed to the M-1 and then M-2 round required redesign after redesign. The enbloc clip had much to recommend it in a design informed by the filth of WWI trench warfare. As well there was a desire to produce as light a rifle as practical. There was a very real plainly stated concern to restrict ammunition consumption. There are likely other reasons of which I am not aware. Hatcher's book on the M-1 Garand is helpful on understanding the dynamic of the M-1's development. HTH. Sincerely. brucev.

PS. Re: the "ping" of an ejected enbloc clip. I've never fired the M-1 in combat. I cannot speak to what men in combat might hear or not hear. I have fire a lot of M-1 rifles on the line in vintage military rifle matches. This typically requires firing ten shot strings of fire in each relay in which one normally loads two rounds, fires those rounds letting the enbloc clip eject and then reloads a full eight round enbloc clip to finish the relay. I have occasionally hear the enbloc clip eject from my rifle. I have not ever heard a enbloc clip eject from a competitors rifle regardless of if they were firing on my right or left side. In a match, there is normally no more than 4-6 feet between competitors. The distance is close enough that it is not unusual to be hit be fired brass ejected from the competitor to one's left. That will really play hob with your concentration when that hot piece of brass runs down inside the collar of your shirt.

 

[NYlakesider]

Why the enbloc clip? Chalk it up to developing a cutting edge infantry rifle against the backdrop of the horrific experience of the WWI trenches coupled with the realities of a war dept. getting by on a understandably restricted peace time budget. Early on development was predicated on designs based on or similar to the 03 and 1917, even using actual parts, etc. Various early requirements for a .276 caliber round later changed to the M-1 and then M-2 round required redesign after redesign. The enbloc clip had much to recommend it in a design informed by the filth of WWI trench warfare. As well there was a desire to produce as light a rifle as practical. There was a very real plainly stated concern to restrict ammunition consumption. There are likely other reasons of which I am not aware. Hatcher's book on the M-1 Garand is helpful on understanding the dynamic of the M-1's development. HTH. Sincerely. brucev.

PS. Re: the "ping" of an ejected enbloc clip. I've never fired the M-1 in combat. I cannot speak to what men in combat might hear or not hear. I have fire a lot of M-1 rifles on the line in vintage military rifle matches. This typically requires firing ten shot strings of fire in each relay in which one normally loads two rounds, fires those rounds letting the enbloc clip eject and then reloads a full eight round enbloc clip to finish the relay. I have occasionally hear the enbloc clip eject from my rifle. I have not ever heard a enbloc clip eject from a competitors rifle regardless of if they were firing on my right or left side. In a match, there is normally no more than 4-6 feet between competitors. The distance is close enough that it is not unusual to be hit be fired brass ejected from the competitor to one's left. That will really play hob with your concentration when that hot piece of brass runs down inside the collar of your shirt.

Good answers Thanks.

I only mentioned the ping as a sidebar as I seriously doubt in battle that sound would travel very far. I consider that ''ping problem'' to be much more of a legend than an actual problem. Any shots fired by you or close to you and your hearing is compromised as in war time I doubt many used ear plugs!

When we fired hipower at my club I was close behind the lines in a RO capacity and the bang noises cover up the ejection and ground noises quite well!

 

[11B Lifer]

Ammunition capacity

The M1 loaded like the Springfield-You can carry more ammunition in bandoleers and clips-than in magazines-also, some magazines will get crud in them and malfunction. The sound of an ejecting clip drawing fire is fiction-I never met an old German soldier who indicated he would run up on a "ping" sound.
M16/M4 magazines need to be kept clean-
The 1911 would seem an exception-but it was designed for Cavalry-quick magazine changes, ejection up and over to avoid the face of the horse next to you.

 

[TAROMAN]

Agree the ping myth was likely dreamed up by some gunwriter, and continues to repeated as gospel to this day.
Larry Vickers and Scott Duff absolutely busted this myth on his show.
One member here asked his grandfather (WW2 Marine who fought on Iwo Jima) about it. His reply: "any Jap who was close enough to hear a ping was already dead"

 

[reddogge]

It was easier, lighter and faster to carry and load ammo in enbloc clips than loose and try to load magazines in battle.

The "ping" myth has been debunked tons of times. The last time being in the NRA National Rifleman of a couple months ago. Geman soldiers stated they couldn't hear them in battle and even if they did they could be a decoy "ping" so no big rush at the "ping".

 

[Armyphotog]

If I was a Nazi, or Japanese soldier in WW2 and I heard the "ping" of an ejected Garrand magazine, I can tell you pretty much what they were thinking as they bolted their antiquated rifles. "Oh, ****, he's reloading!"

 

[Fat Old Guy]

PS. Re: the "ping" of an ejected enbloc clip. I've never fired the M-1 in combat. I cannot speak to what men in combat might hear or not hear.

I grew up next door to a Korean war vet who told me that the Chinese would wait for the noise of the clip hitting the frozen ground to charge a position. The GIs got smart and would toss an empty clip to fool the Chinese. Maybe he was lying. Dunno, I'd trust him more than I would some German soldiers.

The SMLE had a detachable magazine but standard practice was to not remove the mag. I believe that replacement mags were not readily available.

 

[ACP230]

I shot an M1 in NRA Highpower matches when most guns on the line were M1s. (The hot shots had M1As and one or two oddballs shot ARs).

I have heard clips "pinging" up and down the line when the "load 2"
clips were expended and a full one was just about to be loaded.
Most people got done with the first clip about the same time and
the pinging noise rippled around the line as the ejected clips hit
the concrete pad we shot from.

I heard it from positions on the line, and from behind the line while
observing the relay before mine.

Don't think it would make any difference in battle, however. Lots of
other racket to cover it up there, I think.

 

[mkk41]

I can't help but think John Garand was inspired by the Mannlicher system , where the rounds were loaded with the clip , which was almost like a stripper clip , but dropped out the bottom after the last round was chambered. Made for a quick one-motion reload.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

The M-1 was very much a First Generation development, hence a lot of its tactical application and function really hadn't been thought out too closely. I have not read anything as to why the BAR magazine wasn't used, Garand was a civilian employee and probably never saw a BAR also he developed the M-1 pretty much by himself with little input from others.
The M-14 corrected one of the M-1's faults by using a detachable 20 round magazine AND having a stripper clip guide to allow the magazine to be topped off. The M-1 "ping" is one of those minor things that people focus on without paying attention to the Big Picture, remember soldiers don't wear hearing protection. And combat is usually a team effort.

 

[mkk41]

Detachable mags were experimented with during WWII. I do believe there are a few R&D M-1 Garands modified to take BAR mags at the Springfield Armory Museum.

There's even a few 1903 Springfield bolt actions so modified.

 

[brucev]

I shot an M1 in NRA Highpower matches when most guns on the line were M1s. (The hot shots had M1As and one or two oddballs shot ARs).

I have heard clips "pinging" up and down the line when the "load 2"
clips were expended and a full one was just about to be loaded.
Most people got done with the first clip about the same time and
the pinging noise rippled around the line as the ejected clips hit
the concrete pad we shot from.

I heard it from positions on the line, and from behind the line while
observing the relay before mine.

Don't think it would make any difference in battle, however. Lots of
other racket to cover it up there, I think.

You are certainly correct. I didn't think about firing on a range with concrete firing points.

 

[m1gunner]

The Garand, in the original design caliber, would have held 10 rounds in the clip. This was a huge step forward over the other battle rifles.

By using an internal magazine, there was no difference in marksmanship training and shooting positions between the Springfield and the Garand.

The enbloc clips also had 2 sets of feed lips, and could be shipped in ammo boxes and crates already loaded. The clipped ammo packs as densely as stripper clipped ammo, and more tightly then boxed ammo.

It is a myth the Garand can't be "topped up" after several rounds are fired. If need be, just eject the clip and start new, but adding several rounds is easy.

The Garand can also exhibit a higher rate of fire than the M-14 due to more rapid reloading of clips over mags, but in either, the sustained rate of fire is below what can be demonstrated for both rifles as heat builds fast in rapid 30 cal firing, and the Garand handguards will burn if pushed beyond recommended usage.

For a battle rifle in the mid 1930s, the Garand was a masterpiece.

 

[cowart]

why it had an enbloc clip instead of a detachable magazine.

Garand's original intention was for it to have a 20 round enbloc clip. The Army turned that idea down because it would have required making changes to the existing "manual of arms", which was out of the question, of course. ;>)

Actually, for troops who mostly move around on foot, enbloc clips can be more user friendly than detachable magazines. You receieve your ammo pre-packaged on clips and in bandoleers, ready to go. You don't have to have a separate container for carrying your empty magazines. You don't have to spend time loading your magazines.

Troops could attach one or two clips directly to the shoulder straps of their web gear, by sliding the clip directly over the strap. This enabled extremely fast emergency reloads without handling pouches or bandoleers.

I recall reading that in the later parts of the Vietnam war, they actually started supplying ammo already loaded in mazagines for similar reasons.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Garand's original intention was for it to have a 20 round enbloc clip. The Army turned that idea down because it would have required making changes to the existing "manual of arms", which was out of the question, of course. ;>)

The M1 has a different manual of arms than the '03 anyway.

 

[Armyphotog]

I grew up next door to a Korean war vet who told me that the Chinese would wait for the noise of the clip hitting the frozen ground to charge a position. The GIs got smart and would toss an empty clip to fool the Chinese. Maybe he was lying. Dunno, I'd trust him more than I would some German soldiers.

The SMLE had a detachable magazine but standard practice was to not remove the mag. I believe that replacement mags were not readily available.

One clip? One noise? Then charge a position which had to have more than 1 G.I. in it, and a rifle squad with 2-BAR's and at least 1 M-2 carbine? No wonder we stacked them up like cordwood in front of a position.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

One clip? One noise? Then charge a position which had to have more than 1 G.I. in it, and a rifle squad with 2-BAR's and at least 1 M-2 carbine? No wonder we stacked them up like cordwood in front of a position.

If nothing else, the Chinese were not as well trained as the Germans.

 

[TAROMAN]

One clip? One noise? Then charge a position which had to have more than 1 G.I. in it, and a rifle squad with 2-BAR's and at least 1 M-2 carbine? No wonder we stacked them up like cordwood in front of a position.

Right on, brother!

 

[MaximumLawman]

I consider that ''ping problem'' to be much more of a legend than an actual problem

Don Burgett told me you are absolutely correct regarding being able to hear the "ping" in battle.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Don Burgett told me you are absolutely correct regarding being able to hear the "ping" in battle.

Oddly, in all the years that I've been a fan of the M1, I have never heard this about WW II only Korea.

A survivor from Fox Company of Frozen Chosin fame belongs to my gym. Next time I see him, I'll have to ask him about that.

 

[MaximumLawman]

Oddly, in all the years that I've been a fan of the M1, I have never heard this about WW II only Korea.

A survivor from Fox Company of Frozen Chosin fame belongs to my gym. Next time I see him, I'll have to ask him about that.

Another contradiction: Several WWII guys have told me they had no use for the .30 carbine if a 30-06 M-1 was available, due to the well-known gripe about a lack of knock-down power. However, I spoke with several guys who were involved in 3 serious nights of massed infantry attacks by Chinese and North Korean troops on a hill in Korea and they loved the M-2 carbine due to the ability to fire a lot of rounds fast from a relatively plentiful magazine.

 

[therevjay]

M1's were still around (at least for training use) in the early 60's. I lugged one around Ft. Carson in Jan. 1960 in Basic. It weighed 9.5 lbs (in the morning) about 95 by evening.

And yes, I have first hand experiance with the "M1 thumb." That was a very effective "learning experiance". I don't think anyone ever did it twice.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Several WWII guys have told me they had no use for the .30 carbine if a 30-06 M-1 was available, due to the well-known gripe about a lack of knock-down power.

My Korean War vet neighbor was an infantry officer. He was shot twice or thrice so I'm guessing that he saw his fair share of battle. He told me that he swapped his carbine for an M1 because of the effectiveness of the M1.

I would guess that the M2 would be nice because it is selective fire although history has shown us that full auto fire is not a very effective use of ammunition.