M58 in 45colt

[hastings]

I would love to see S&W make a heavy barreled fixed sight square butt revolver similar to the m58, but in 45colt. I have a 22-4 Thunder Ranch, and it is close to perfection for me, but I have mixed feelings about moon clips and don't care for 45autorim. I have always been a fan of the 45colt cartridge, and in a 58 style platform the softer recoil and reduced blast would be an improvement over the 41mag (for me). I also prefer fixed sights on a 4" barreled revolver. The attached picture is a Bowen custom for sale on a different forum. If I had the cash I would buy it in a heartbeat. I think it is the perfect revolver.

 

[Pook]

I Second That!

I have always had a soft spot for DA revolvers in .45 Colt, and I have always preferred fixed-sight handguns. Hastings' idea is a winner!

 

[tekarra]

+2 for Hastings' idea.

 

[Joe Kent]

That very revolver is forsale right now own our own forum.

 

[hastings]

I know, I know. Don't rub it in. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of cash kicking around right now. If anyone wants to buy my four favorite firearms for two grand, I would love to purchase that Bowen. If anyone wants a 22-4 Thunder Ranch, 25-13 45colt Mountain Gun, 640-1 357mag, and a Ruger M77 Ultralight 308, I'll throw in two maine coon cats, my neighbor's snow-blower (he'll never miss it), and a pair of herman survivors (size 12) with plenty of remaining tread. One-time only deal, act before midnight and you get a Cold-Steel Trailmaster Bowie and a complimentary litter box in your choice of colors.

Seriously, I'd ditch all of the above listed firearms and maybe a few others for the Bowen. I'm a one-gun kind of guy, and when I find the right one I usually forget about the others (same way with women). I may just sell most of my other guns, keeping only two handguns. I could send one to Bowen to work on, and keep the other for my carry piece. Is his work worth the money?

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

+3 on Hastings idea. HB is fine, but a tapered "pencil" barrel would be fine, too. Like a Model 10 on steriods.

 

[hastings]

Nice idea on the pencil barrel, the Last Standing Knight. There was another Bowen built from a 520 for sale on this forum about two weeks ago that fit that bill. I've attached a photo of the revolver, which wasn't easy due to the drool on my keypad.

Has anyone converted a model 22-4 to 45colt? Granted, it has the lock, frame mounted firing pin, and MIM parts, but it's already got the tapered barrel, fixed rear and half-moon front sights, square-butt, and 4 screw frame. You'd have to install a new cylinder and shave the forcing cone down to accommodate the 45colt cylinder, but I love the 22-4. Just don't love the moon clips. They're fine for the range, but when I carry the 22 it's hard put a few extra full moon clips in my pocket. Half-moons work better, but loose cartridges or a speed strip are my preference.

 

[Pook]

Tempting Offer

The two Maine Coon cats is a tempting offer -- they could conspire with the one I already have to really wreck my place!

 

[hastings]

Tell me about it. My two are the size of small dogs and do laps around my house at 3am. It sounds like a chariot race, and is equally as destructive. They occasionally stalk neighborhood dogs. I've been keeping them in so the coyotes don't get them, but it might be a fair fight. The coyotes have been getting much more aggressive this year. A fella I work with was chased out of the woods by coyotes, while bow hunting this season. He was bowhunting from a treestand about a quarter mile behind my house, and left the tree stand just after dark. He was followed, then chased by a pack of eight or more coyotes, which almost overtook him. He made it to his truck, but just barely, and got a few shots off into the dark with a .22 pistol but didn't hit anything. He had goosebumps and was shaking when he related the experience to me. This is right behind my house (I live right against the Green Mountain National Forest, 333,000 acres of trout streams, ponds and mountains), which has made my walks in the woods much more interesting. You can hear the packs out there, and if they scent you they tend to follow, albeit at a pretty good distance. I have been rubbing hamburg onto my clothes and taking to the woods a few hours before dark with my 45colt mountain gun and a tomahawk in an effort to confront the pack but they have been staying out beyond 200 yards or more and wait for darkness before they come in closer. It's an oddly clarifying feeling being stalked by a pack of predators. It feels almost fair.

 

[NE450No2]

Hastings

Actually I recommend you try a S&W revolver in 45 ACP/45 Auto Rim. I think you will like it.

Give the full moon clips a try, use AR brass for hotter field loads...

However, I knew George Nonte, He modified a S&W Mod 58 to 45 Colt, way back in the day. That revolver was featured in a few magazine articles. I bought the Pachmayer rubber grips off of that gun for $5.00 if I remember correctly. They were the ones made before the speed loader cutouts.

 

[hastings]

I have a 22-4 Thunder Ranch revolver in 45acp, and love it. I prefer the reloading versatility of the 45colt over the 45acp, but the 22-4 is pretty much perfect in all other regards, except obviously the lock, frame mounted firing pin, and mim parts.

 

[Doc Watson]

+1 for the m58 in .45 colt.

 

[max]

I suppose I am lucky as I have a 58 and also a 25-5. It seems to me that the 58 with a lead swc over 7 or 8 grains of Unique is very similar to the 45 load.

 

[hastings]

NE450No2:

By the way, if I want to use auto-rim ammo in the 22-4, do I need to get a longer firing pin?
I assume, perhaps wrongly, that the 45 autorim cases have roughly the same thickness rim as the recessed rim on the 45acp cases and since the moon clip holds the rear of the 45acp cases closer to the firing pin aperature than the autorim's rim will, the autorims will have either sporatic ignition or no ignition unless I use a longer firing pin. Currently, I can load the 45acp shells without the clips, but they won't fire without the moon clips spacing them correctly.
If they accounted for this difference when designing the 45 autorim, I definitely need to get a couple hundred rounds to shoot and reload.

 

[Tom K]

Yes, you assume wrongly

NE450No2:
By the way, if I want to use auto-rim ammo in the 22-4, do I need to get a longer firing pin?
I assume, perhaps wrongly, that the 45 autorim cases have roughly the same thickness rim as the recessed rim on the 45acp cases and since the moon clip holds the rear of the 45acp cases closer to the firing pin aperature than the autorim's rim will, the autorims will have either sporatic ignition or no ignition unless I use a longer firing pin.

The AR cases have a thicker rim to account for the headspacing. No change to the firing pin is necessary, and you can change between ACP and AR ammo at will. This is the beauty of the AR round.

Currently, I can load the 45acp shells without the clips, but they won't fire without the moon clips spacing them correctly.

This is a problem that I read about not too long ago in Handloader or Rifle. For some reason S&W stupidly decided not to bother with correctly cutting the chambers of the current M22 so that the ACP cartridges would headspace on the case mouth. In the past, from the Model 1917 on, it was always possible to fire ACP rounds without the clip, you just had to poke the empties out with a pencil or something. (Early Colt 1917s were chambered without a headspace lip and so did require the clip for proper functioning.) Seems a terrible oversight to me.

If they accounted for this difference when designing the 45 autorim, I definitely need to get a couple hundred rounds to shoot and reload.

Hie thee to Midway then, or your other favorite reloading supplier. Note that you'll also need a new shellholder specifically made for the Autorim round, because of the extra thickness. However regular .45ACP dies and load data can still be used.

 

[Sebago Son]

+1 on .45 ACP in a Model 58.

I've got a 58 in .44 mag and it's great, but .45 ACP would make a great self-defense belt gun.

 

[ddixie884]

I wish I had known Major Nonte. He was always one of my favorites. I once called him the great gun butcher on this forum, and got a negative response, however I always appreciated the fact that he wasn't afraid to alter a gun to make it better. He built the 58 mentioned earlier, and an Officers Model ACP long before such short BIG BORES were generally accepted.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

Nice idea on the pencil barrel, the Last Standing Knight. There was another Bowen built from a 520 for sale on this forum about two weeks ago that fit that bill. I've attached a photo of the revolver, which wasn't easy due to the drool on my keypad.

Has anyone converted a model 22-4 to 45colt? Granted, it has the lock, frame mounted firing pin, and MIM parts, but it's already got the tapered barrel, fixed rear and half-moon front sights, square-butt, and 4 screw frame. You'd have to install a new cylinder and shave the forcing cone down to accommodate the 45colt cylinder, but I love the 22-4. Just don't love the moon clips. They're fine for the range, but when I carry the 22 it's hard put a few extra full moon clips in my pocket. Half-moons work better, but loose cartridges or a speed strip are my preference.

After seeing the picture you attached, I fell to my knees screaming in unspeakable agony!!!! One of those under your tree on Christmas morning means you haven't been very good...you've been excellent .

 

[NE450No2]

George Nonte was a real character, and a very nice guy...

On the 45 ACP revolver vs the 45 Colt revolver, it is simply a matter of taste...

If I was a Colt 45 Peacemaker shooter I would have a S&W in 45 Colt...

But I am not, I am a 1911 45 ACP kind of guy, and a S&W in 45 ACP is a natural for me.

In my work, due to decisions of two different Chiefs, one that banned semiautos, another that banned Magnums, I carried a S&W Mod 25 in 45 ACP for several years. First with half moon clips, later with full moon clips.

I have shot a fair amount of Auto Rim ammo as well.

I am retired now, but a few months ago I bought a 325 NG and "doug out" my full moon clips and some AR ammo...

IMHO if you do not need the power of the 44 Mag, then the 45 ACP/Auto Rim is the best protection revolver on the planet.

 

[hastings]

IMHO if you do not need the power of the 44 Mag, then the 45 ACP/Auto Rim is the best protection revolver on the planet.

I agree with you on this. Against two legged threats, I really don't think the 44mag is a wise choice for protection. Having fired a 44mag indoors without hearing protection, I now do a lot of lip-reading to compensate for my substantial hearing loss. Firing one inside an automobile would probably lead to complete hearing loss and concussion grenade-like sensory impact. And try firing one while in a grappling situation with the gun against your side, face, or any part of you person for that matter.

The first shot is not always the deciding shot, so I'd rather carry something I can shoot accurately, and quickly. My brother's favorite gun is his 41mag Mountain Gun. For me it's a toss-up between my 45colt Mountain Gun and my 22-4 Thunder Ranch. When we shoot together, I can get three well placed rounds off with either the 45colt or the 45acp to one of his from the 41mag.

If I could guarantee that should the need to use a handgun in self defense ever arise (God forbid), I would be outdoors, have hearing protection on, and not need to fire the weapon with the muzzle in very close proximity to any part of your body, while shooting from a modified weaver stance, and not need a second shot, I might pick a 44mag for my carry piece. Since these variables are seldom controlable, I defer to a cartridge that is effective without significant muzzle blast and recoil.

I know many guys who are comfortable and affective with a 41 or 44mag, but that doesn't rule out the indoor affects, or the impact the muzzle and cylinder gap blast has on exposed or even covered flesh when fired against your body. In my experience, self defense situations are seldom comfortable, convenient, or even expected. If you are going to carry a firearm in case of such an event, it is a wise idea to consider and prepare for scenarios other than a timed shooting event at the local range. Those skills are valuable, but not always applicable. More often, it is an awkward, ugly event involving distances and positions that many never practice for.