M9 vs M1911A1

[rockquarry]

My choice, and did carry both over the years is hands down the 1911. This is based on accuracy as well as ease of reloading and operation. For those who could not handle the recoil of the 1911 there should have been a 1911 available in 9mm, Two extra rounds over the .45 but much more accurate than any M9 ever hoped to be.

I've found the Beretta and the 1911 to be quite accurate, though most of my experience has been with cast bullets. They should both do well with jacketed bullets also. My accuracy rule of thumb with regard to handguns is 25 yard accuracy. If one won't shoot well at that distance, I'll likely trade or sell it.

 

[bph9]

Below is my Tisas GI edition .45 automatic along with WW2-based pistol belt gear. Below that is my Beretta M9 with a similar setup based on Desert Storm or early GWOT.

View attachment 791072

I love shooting them both and have a hard time picking which would be the one I'd want to carry in combat.

For me, the M1911A1 is a hard hitting classic and harkens back. But the M9 is a smooth shooter with benefits in capacity and (for me) shootability. It's a very tough choice!

What are your thoughts on the matter? Which one do you think was the better military sidearm?

-Glenn

I can answer your question in two ways.

The best mechanical design: "The 1911"

The safer design to handle and use: The M 92

The best caliber: "The 9mm" and read below why.

In 1945, 34 years after adopting the 1911 the U.S. Military actually tested the .45 acp v/s the 9x19 and what they found shocked them out of their shoes.

The 9x19 penetrated a steel military helmet at an astonishing 125 yards and might have done so even further away but no one succeeded in hitting it beyond 125 yards.

The .45 acp bounced off the steel helmet at a scant 35 yards shocking everyone.

Considering the fact that the 9x19:

Recoils less resulting in faster recoil recovery time. You can get off 3 shots to one .45 acp shot.

Less recoil results in more accurate shooting.

Holds twice as much ammo.

A man can carry more ammo.

Has a flatter trajectory making longer range hits easier.

Has superior penetration.

Costs less to manufacture.

A pistol with a decocker is a safer gun to handle.

All this makes the 9x19 the superior military round and just about every nation adopted it and roundly rejected the 1911 .45 acp. Now you know why they did.

So should the military have just rechambered the 1911 to 9mm?

No, as it was a big heavy gun and a pistol in 9mm designed from the ground up can be made smaller, and lighter and have less grip circumference so it fits a wide variety of hands. This the Beretta 92 did not do as it was a big gun like the 1911. A Plasticky pistol may turn your stomach but "without" removable grips the grip circumference is smaller and the 9mm cartridge is shorter in length which means it has a smaller grip circumference as well and the plasticky gun is lighter in weight. And the overall length of a new plasticky pistol can be made less compared to the existing and ponderous 92 and 1911 pistols. And as mentioned a pistol with a decocker, and a chamber loaded indicator is safer to handle and use (which the M 92 did have).

 

[ISCS Yoda]

What

Rocketmedic40

said. No need to repeat it.

 

[Long2guns]

My exposure to US Army sidearms was unusual (best word to describe it). While assigned to the 101st Airborne as a Huey crew chief, one of my deployments was to Central America in 1989.
Before leaving Ft. Campbell I was administered a day at the aerial gunnery range (for the M-60D's mounted on the aircraft) and also a "familiarization" range with a S&W Model 15 as flight status personnel our survival vests included a holster for a handgun. No training, just load it and try to hit the target at 15 yards. Which we didn't, blaming inaccurate sights or some other problem (most likely the lack of any formal training). Once in-country we were the aviation asset to the US Embassy which also supplied all of our weaponry and ammunition. The personal weapons for choosing were 1911's, Beretta M9's, or Browning Highpower's. I went with the 1911 having never fired one at that point in life (21 yrs old) because that's what dad was issued in the mid-1950's as an Army MP. Due to frequent blackouts caused by guerrilla warfare targeting power grids, we practiced field stripping and assembling in total darkness. I remember the slide being really loose (significant rattle when shaken from side to side) yet accurate out to 25 yards.
Once discharged and working in law enforcement I was taught on the Model 65 then transitioned to the 4506; so for home/self defense I definitely go with a hammer fired pistol double action.
Photo is of my Springfield GI, Kimber LW Nightstar, and GSG 1911-22 with a SilencerCo suppressor. All three are shot very regularly.

 

[Dave Haynes]

I can answer your question in two ways.

The best mechanical design: "The 1911"

The safer design to handle and use: The M 92

The best caliber: "The 9mm" and read below why.

In 1945, 34 years after adopting the 1911 the U.S. Military actually tested the .45 acp v/s the 9x19 and what they found shocked them out of their shoes.

The 9x19 penetrated a steel military helmet at an astonishing 125 yards and might have done so even further away but no one succeeded in hitting it beyond 125 yards.

The .45 acp bounced off the steel helmet at a scant 35 yards shocking everyone.

Considering the fact that the 9x19:

Recoils less resulting in faster recoil recovery time. You can get off 3 shots to one .45 acp shot.

Less recoil results in more accurate shooting.

Holds twice as much ammo.

A man can carry more ammo.

Has a flatter trajectory making longer range hits easier.

Has superior penetration.

Costs less to manufacture.

A pistol with a decocker is a safer gun to handle.

All this makes the 9x19 the superior military round and just about every nation adopted it and roundly rejected the 1911 .45 acp. Now you know why they did.

So should the military have just rechambered the 1911 to 9mm?

No, as it was a big heavy gun and a pistol in 9mm designed from the ground up can be made smaller, and lighter and have less grip circumference so it fits a wide variety of hands. This the Beretta 92 did not do as it was a big gun like the 1911. A Plasticky pistol may turn your stomach but "without" removable grips the grip circumference is smaller and the 9mm cartridge is shorter in length which means it has a smaller grip circumference as well and the plasticky gun is lighter in weight. And the overall length of a new plasticky pistol can be made less compared to the existing and ponderous 92 and 1911 pistols. And as mentioned a pistol with a decocker, and a chamber loaded indicator is safer to handle and use (which the M 92 did have).

It would be interesting to know what 9mm they were using if it were German SMG ammo it would have been 1500 fps hot.
When in VN one of our guys was messing with some Arvns wife and her husband showed up. It was a beer can house but the 1911 round went through the wall hit our guy in the right shoulder went all the way through getting the heart and passing out on the left side. The guy was dead before he hit the floor. Another guy in the next tent over shot himself in the head with a 1911 and it didn't penetrate through his head so......

 

[lightstar_actual]

The other part thinks that ball ammo stinks and a bigger bullet is better.

I had an old LT who's mantra was: "When it's time to go to work, it's the 1911 because ball does it all". He was a character for sure, but a wise, hard-charging SOB.

 

[rockquarry]

I had an old LT who's mantra was: "When it's time to go to work, it's the 1911 because ball does it all". He was a character for sure, but a wise, hard-charging SOB.

He gave good, simple advice, something regrettably questioned and/or rejected by today's Internet dream gunfighters.

 

[bph9]

It would be interesting to know what 9mm they were using if it were German SMG ammo it would have been 1500 fps hot.
When in VN one of our guys was messing with some Arvns wife and her husband showed up. It was a beer can house but the 1911 round went through the wall hit our guy in the right shoulder went all the way through getting the heart and passing out on the left side. The guy was dead before he hit the floor. Another guy in the next tent over shot himself in the head with a 1911 and it didn't penetrate through his head so......

They stated it was a Canadian Inglis Pistol and the .45 was a 1911 pistol. See the book "The Inglis Diamond" for the comments on this test.

 

[KWW]

I can answer your question in two ways.

The best mechanical design: "The 1911"

The safer design to handle and use: The M 92

The best caliber: "The 9mm" and read below why.

In 1945, 34 years after adopting the 1911 the U.S. Military actually tested the .45 acp v/s the 9x19 and what they found shocked them out of their shoes.

The 9x19 penetrated a steel military helmet at an astonishing 125 yards and might have done so even further away but no one succeeded in hitting it beyond 125 yards.

The .45 acp bounced off the steel helmet at a scant 35 yards shocking everyone.

Considering the fact that the 9x19:

Recoils less resulting in faster recoil recovery time. You can get off 3 shots to one .45 acp shot.

Less recoil results in more accurate shooting.

Holds twice as much ammo.

A man can carry more ammo.

Has a flatter trajectory making longer range hits easier.

Has superior penetration.

Costs less to manufacture.

A pistol with a decocker is a safer gun to handle.

All this makes the 9x19 the superior military round and just about every nation adopted it and roundly rejected the 1911 .45 acp. Now you know why they did.

So should the military have just rechambered the 1911 to 9mm?

No, as it was a big heavy gun and a pistol in 9mm designed from the ground up can be made smaller, and lighter and have less grip circumference so it fits a wide variety of hands. This the Beretta 92 did not do as it was a big gun like the 1911. A Plasticky pistol may turn your stomach but "without" removable grips the grip circumference is smaller and the 9mm cartridge is shorter in length which means it has a smaller grip circumference as well and the plasticky gun is lighter in weight. And the overall length of a new plasticky pistol can be made less compared to the existing and ponderous 92 and 1911 pistols. And as mentioned a pistol with a decocker, and a chamber loaded indicator is safer to handle and use (which the M 92 did have).

Lots of thoughts on this post. Plastic-fantastic guns are probably the best handguns for the least trained personnel. I carried a 686, S&W 4506, Sig 226, 228 and 220, Glock 21, 22 and 35, and 1911 and 2011 platforms in my 30 year career in LE. Just my $.02, decocker/safeties were often an issue in inexperienced hands as the folks would fail to lift the safety in stressful situations, even on the range. Decocker only on the Sigs and 92g was much more user friendly for the inexperienced, but the plastic guns were probably the best choice. For the well trained/experienced, the 1911/2011 platforms are the most used on our Department's tactical and special teams. I don't know of many people who fit the 1911 grip/frame correctly that are more accurate with any other hangun, when the guns are equally accurate.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

I may have an unpopular opinion and love a 1911 but if I were carrying one daily I'd opt for the M9, if it fits your hand. I have swapped out my Beratta and all of my 1911's with short triggers.

The rational behing the Beretta is less recoil, higher capacity. The 9mm is dearibed as more lethal but with equally designed bullets there isn't a real difference performance wise.

 

[alwslate]

The question was answered around 1985 when the US Government replaced the obsolete 1911 with the M9. Why continue to beat a long dead horse?

 

[Dave Haynes]

The question was answered around 1985 when the US Government replaced the obsolete 1911 with the M9. Why continue to beat a long dead horse?

Was that a response to NATO ammunition or was it really better? I don't think the horse expired yet.....

Some AI and regular verbiage on the subject:
The US military adopted 9mm NATO ammunition for its handguns primarily to standardize with other NATO countries, simplify logistics, and increase magazine capacity
. This transition began in the 1980s with the selection of the Beretta M9, replacing the aging M1911A1 .45 ACP pistol.

Reasons for the transition to 9mm
The move to the 9mm NATO round was a strategic logistical decision that offered several operational benefits to the US military.

• Standardization: The M9 pistol was adopted as the official US military sidearm in 1985, formalizing the switch to 9mm. Most other NATO forces had been using 9mm pistols and submachine guns for decades, which simplified the supply chain for ammunition among allied countries.
• Logistical advantages: 9mm cartridges are lighter and less bulky than .45 ACP rounds, allowing a soldier to carry more ammunition for the same amount of weight.
• Higher capacity magazines: The smaller size of the 9mm cartridge allows for higher-capacity, double-stack magazines. The M9's 15-round magazine, for example, more than doubled the capacity of the M1911's 7-round magazine.
• Controllable recoil: The 9mm round has less recoil than the .45 ACP, making the weapon easier for many users to handle and improving shooter accuracy, particularly for less experienced personnel.
  
  
  
  
  
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[rockquarry]

The question was answered around 1985 when the US Government replaced the obsolete 1911 with the M9. Why continue to beat a long dead horse?

The question was answered around 1985 when the US Government replaced the obsolete 1911 with the M9. Why continue to beat a long dead horse?

Lots of dead horse beaters here and they never tire of beating the corpses.

 

[crasig]

My father was issued a Thompson in WWII (as a Sargent), But he took his own colt 1911 with him, had a shoulder holster made in England, & wore it from London, North Africa, to Italy. I own & enjoy a couple of 1911 clones. IMO the 1911 was a better design than the M-9, so I never tried one. In 9mm I also prefer Hi Powers. But the 9mm DA/SA CZ-75 design is the one I'd most like to carry in harms way. Very safe to carry with a round chambered, & good round capacity & accuracy.
Even affordable Clones of all my favorites are fine quality.

 

[retarmyaviator]

The M9 was certainly a step up from the WWII vintage Victory model I was issued at Ft Campbell in 1985.

 

[Doug Miller]

It would be interesting to know what 9mm they were using if it were German SMG ammo it would have been 1500 fps hot.
When in VN one of our guys was messing with some Arvns wife and her husband showed up. It was a beer can house but the 1911 round went through the wall hit our guy in the right shoulder went all the way through getting the heart and passing out on the left side. The guy was dead before he hit the floor. Another guy in the next tent over shot himself in the head with a 1911 and it didn't penetrate through his head so......

 

[delta-419]

The 9mm vs the 45acp, something for all shooters. I was serving in West Germany during the cold war in the late '80s at Grafenwöhr Gunner Range when a new water line project excavation broke open a WWII bunker and liberated 32k rounds of 9mm. A "Shootsn Fest" that followed pitted our MP units against the local German Polizzi. I was invited to take part. My first encounter with the 9mm. Like everybody else of my generation , I cut my teeth on the 1911A1. I love long range pistol shooting (100+ meters), that was an epiphany for me. Before I left West Germany I was able to acquire a CZ 75, I fell in love with it. Fast forward to 1989 and PCS to Rock Island Arsenal. At that time the arsenal was rebuilding WWII 1911A1s which were still in service and employed a group of gunsmiths for the job. Several of which had their own shops off post. I had an old Auto-ordance 1911 that was worse then bad. Not reliable! I asked one of the older guys if it was worth the trouble to fix it right. Yes! He took it and rebuilt it from scratch using quality parts (Colt). For 35 years it has never had an FF and is one of the most reliable guns I own. I can not say the 9mm or the 45acp is the best I feel at home with both. As a senior citizen I need more ammo and a 13 round mag feels good. In close quarters my 1911 feels good! A 45 is next to my bed!

 

[K Harris]

The M9 is a beautiful pistol. However, it was always too thick for my hands. I feel the same about most metal-frame, double-stack magazine pistols. The 1911A1 on the other hand feels like it was made specifically for me, so I will give the 1911A1 the advantage. As far as calibre is concerned, it makes no difference to me.