Makarov vs. Springfield Hellcat

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/...All I'm saying is it can cut both ways. This comment is not aimed at you at all. I'm just saying it's best if we all keep an open mind.

When a thread like this gets started, it sometimes feels people wanting others to validate their choices rather than a desire for honest feedback. It quickly becomes an echo chamber. .../

/...

Sadly that seems to be the case on most issues, not just gun related issues.

Critical thinking is out of fashion. People come to "know" what they think they "know" because "someone said" and they happen to agree with that someone and/or regard that someone as some sort of authority.

It has little or nothing to do with actual experience, logic, or any other form of validation other than "a lot of people believe it so it must be true". That's the echo chamber you describe and none of them have any clue they are perpetuating an ad populum logical fallacy.

On the flip side, if they disagree with that someone, rather than let that challenge their own thinking and belief(s) and then seek to validate what they think they know through empirical evidence, testing, etc, they just ignore it. That's the closed mindedness you mention.

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Most people today are also pretty poor when it comes to qualifying statements - identifying when they are applicable and when they are not.

For example someone will insist that carrying a full size automatic with a capacity of 15 + 1 to 18+1 rounds along with 2 spare magazines is important for concealed carry. The basis for this argument is either "that's what law enforcement officers carry" or the related "I might encounter multiple assailants", which is just a variant of the LEO argument.

LEOs might need that high capacity and two spare mags because they go looking for trouble in dark places and/or serve warrants or otherwise get into situations that might involve multiple assailants.

Armed citizens, at least armed citizens with brains and any degree of situational awareness do not.

Recognizing the qualifications around a statement of fact is important in setting priorities and finding a balanced response to a problem.

For example, I have a CZ SP101 tactical with 18 round magazines and it's great for tactical shooting. But it is large and heavy. With 2 spare magazines it's really heavy and if I had to carry it all day long in concealed carry, sooner or later I just wouldn't. It would do me zero good in the truck or on the dresser when I was inside the local stab and grab getting the wife ice cream at midnight.

In contrast, the pistol by itself isn't bad, but a CZ 75 PCR is better - lighter, smaller, but still very controllable and it still carries 14+1 - for concealed carry purposes. And when concealment really matters the CZ 2075 is a lot smaller and lighter, yet still easy to shoot well and it still has 10+1 capacity.

In the winter or in the woods where I value more penetration a S&W 686+ is a good choice, even though it "only" holds 7 rounds.

In short, I'm not looking for "what LEOs carry", or even what I used to carry as an LEO. Instead I'm looking for the best balance in meeting my perceived needs across a spectrum of comfort, concealment, effectiveness and my ability to shoot it well.

Shooters don't achieve that just listening to some guy talk about what is "best".
 
Well, I'm kinda up there but not quite geezer status and I posit the following:
Colt SAA were the bpmb when they ccame out. The very best, a vast improvement over the black powder muzzle loaders that preceeded them.
Then the S&W Military and Police took over. GREAT guns and an improvement over the load it one at a time SAA PLUS it was double action:eeK: BUt people still loved the SAA. Thne 1911 came around and that was the bulls nuts and it co-existed nicely. Better designs were introduced-easier manufacture, etc and while the 1911 ia a favorite of many for very good reason, let's face it-there are semi autos that are better made and of better design. Also remember that beautiful color case hardening was to harden metal first. The looks were a pleasing extra. Form always follows function. Which is why stainless evolved-it protects against corrosion than blued. Oh and the modern computer manufacturing, while not nearly as romantic as a hand fitted firearm does produce a better more consistent item at an affordable price. Bamboo flyrods were the bomb way back when, but I'll take a high modulus graphite rod over them any day. But I can still appreciate the craftsmanship that went into the bamboo rod.
I love my revolvers-but I also love the rugged simplicity of a striker fired plastic semi auto. I LOVE my A5 but honestly the Benelli SBE is a better gun. And much as I hate to say it, the Benelli is much better suited to duck hunting than the Winchester Model 21.
And I have not yet even started on military guns:D
SO it's all good. We oldsters still love the guns we grew up with, but if we are honest-there are better ones being made today.
 
MAKAROVS_zpsbe7v6a1x.jpg


Maks - I've got a few
But then again, too few to mention.

I tried to get 'em all
and saw it through without exception...

John
 
It’s Milt’s fault - My old Buddy Milt hand carried the first Makarov ever in the USA.
He was assigned to British Army Intelligence and passing them money to buy stuff.
One of the items they bought were Makarovs and he took one to Aberdeen.
He was also involved in our first RPG acquisition, but he didn’t hand carry those!
 
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In other news, Aim has Bulgarian Maks.

You got me all excited for nothing... Yeah, they have Bulgarian Makarovs, in what appears to be in *ahem* "well-worn" condition for $370.

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Hard pass for me. Their $220 Romanian Tokarevs are a much better value.
 
You got me all excited for nothing... Yeah, they have Bulgarian Makarovs, in what appears to be in *ahem* "well-worn" condition for $370.

F1MAKBULGX__80260.1590765763.png


Hard pass for me. Their $220 Romanian Tokarevs are a much better value.

Yeah that’s not a good deal. I have three I bought in pristine condition with all accesories and even the maintenance log books and matching magazines for $300 each about 5 years ago.

Just waiting for the right time to sell them. The values have been climbing nicely.
 

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I'm beginning to think that JayFramer might just enjoy posting controversial topics and going against the grain because I could have sworn that maybe a year ago I saw a thread by him asking about carrying a Single Action Army type revolver in which he was strongly opposed to anyone who said anything even suggesting that there might be better choices, then a few month latter a similar thread about J-Frame Snubbies, and now he's turned completely around and is apparently strongly opposed to anyone carrying anything but the latest and greatest double-stack semiautomatic pistols.

So yeah, unless I'm very much mistaken (other folks have had "JayFrame" in their user names here) or his opinions have changed completely in a very short span of time, I'm going to be bold here and assume that perhaps his opinions aren't quite genuine, ergo anything he says shouldn't be taken at face value.

But hey, if he really is indeed a self-loathing 80+ Year Old who uses derogatory terms for elderly people as insults for everyone who disagrees with his uncharacteristically progressive views on Self-Defense/Firearms, then I would like to take this opportunity to inform everyone that I am in fact related to Werewolves/Vampires and thus I personally feel that anyone who carries anything less than blessed silver-jacketed hallowpoint bullets which expand into a crucifix shape aren't taking their Self-Defense seriously because there are a lot of not-so-friendly Werewolves, Vampires, and other unholy creatures of the night out there who prey on underprepared human beings.
 
I don’t often carry an Auto-
Revolver guy that I am-
But when I do, I carry a Kahr Runt 9.
Yes, I carry in a pocket holster.
 

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Honestly, I like all well made firearms including Glocks & HK’s. My little Walther PPS and Glock 43 are every bit as nice as my Makarovs, just not as “old school”. Heck, most J Frames they make these days don’t have the nice bluing that my old Chief’s Special but they’ll still do the job.
 
Let me make an observation on the "weight of the gun" issue. I've concealed carried a handgun since 1978....... that's 42 years for those from "Rio Linda"(sp?). :D

I started out carrying guns like 1911 Combat Commanders, 3" K-frame Smiths, Sig 220s and a Beretta 92 Compact.............. all over 40oz plus loaded.

I'm not a police officer carrying a handgun on a "Bat belt" weighing in at 5-10 lbs (?) with a S&W 5906 or 4566 and 4 spare mags...... or a Special Forces operator carrying an AR and 70-100 lbs of gear. For them...... ozs. are pounds....... over the course of a shift or humping a special op.

My EDC since 1990 has been a 25 oz S&W 3913 in a Milt Sparks Summer Special II IWB holster with one or two extra mags. a single cell AAA flashlight and a Benchmade North Fork 2.9" folder...12-18 hours a day. No big deal!!!!!

While it makes for good threads and posts........ I think many make too much over the difference between 25 and 17 oz pistols.

LOL

Don't get me started on the concealability of a "single sided vs ambi safety" !!!!!!!

Or why 8+1 will get you killed but 10+1 guarantees survival!!!!


:D

FWIW weighed my 3913NL with Hogue Wood grips, Sparks "Summer Special" holster, Sparks double mag pouch and 3 loaded mags total 24 rounds ......2.5lbs

25oz for the gun 15oz for everything else.
 
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